Isn't it about time someone registered their disgust at the total lack of helicopters available for our brave troops in the Helmand sh1*hole? Tony Blair must bow his head in total shame at the fact that our brave armed forces must ride into battle strapped to the outside skin of a helicopter.

As for the heroes of the day.. Awesome.

With sympathy to L/Cpl Ford's family and friends.


BFBS reported it was a US Apache..either way, good work fellas! :ok:

Letsby, while not detracting from the overall shame of T Bliar esq, I think you may find that riding "into battle strapped to the outside skin of a helicopter" was the prefered option. Not there, not a marine, not a helicopter pilot but maybe they didn't want to go in from the back of a Chinook for reasons various?

sw

Stitchbitch Wrote
"BFBS reported it was a US Apache..either way, good work fellas!
Yesterday 21:50"


Read the reports, know the crews, most definitely UK AH.

Hats off to 656 et al, nice work.

RIP L/Cpl Ford

GBZ, PM please, you will see why I didn't post here.

Wader2

Copied, thanks, with response.

Much appreciated,

GBZ

Letsby / Safeware

All involved have balls the size of Snowdon and I hope their names crop up on Op Honours list before long. Can't praise them enough.:D
But agree with Letsby's point.
Preplanned op by 200 men on a defended enemy position, and no utility helicopter on task, at least close by, in case of casevac?
I'm reliably and specifically told AH were used because no Lynx or Chinook were in the neighbourhood, hence a sapper and three Royals have to do their Spiderman act.
Not that we're short of helicopters, of course. Perish the thought.

Right, carping switch off. If I ever have the honour of meeting guys involved, I'll be honoured to empty my wallet at the bar. Hoofing indeed.

Another small point. Pictures appear to show the cheap seats on outside of Apache pretty close to the air intakes. Isn't there a suction issue???!!

Most certainly not.

CSAR Rescue
 

It is a procedure that the Americans developed and is taught to AAC crews.
It has been used in combat before, however I think this was the first time people were carried INTO the danger area in this manner!
Full article can be read http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov2...004110501.html and http://www.defendamerica.mil/article.../a110404d.html
Still a fantastic action by all units concerned in the true spirit of the UK Armed Forces :D




The original Wizard

Sapper? News to me, where is that info posted? Everywhere I have looked mentions four Royal Marine Commandos.

It's on ARRSE as one source: See the eleventh post down and others later in the thread.

Top work, lads. RIP L/Cpl Ford.

GPMG,
One guy was 28 Eng Regt, one from Z Company 45 Cdo, 2 from Landing Force Support Command Group.
Aircraft were all 9 Regt.
And they're all nails!

So What If?
 

I think it is a great achievement - do not get me wrong - and I do not know the crews/Marines but I am sure that they all had massive balls - and it is re-assuring to know that all of the stops were pulled out in an attempt to recover what was belived to be a live comrade.
But.....and sadly it is a big but
What if we had woken to the news that 2 AH plus crews, and some marines strapped onto to the sides had been lost trying to attempt this desperate mission (and further lives had been lost in the recovery of those downed crews).
I say desperate because despite all of the bravery and superior flying skills I have to ask the question where were the SH, what was the Combat Recovery plan, are we in UK training incorrectly for JPR if this is the way that it is done for real?
Now if the Chinnie boys were unserviceable or on another job or out of crew duty or whatever then this post belongs in the wrong thread as yet again despite NAO reports and all of the advice to the Lords and Masters, there is still a huge shortage of lift capability.
In this case, so short of lift that what looks like a deliberate assault by the Royal Marines did not have adequate SH assets or a trained ground party to effect an immediate combat recovery if/when required.
THIS IS THE WORST CASE OF RISK TAKING
Someone high up knows all of this and has elected to take it on risk. Actually it is not the Public or the Politicians or the Generals or Squadron Commander that physically/mentally takes the risk - it is the crews doing the actual mission. Not only the risk of the actual recovery (being shot at, brownout etc) but also being forced to break rules and regulations (we all know the very good DASC article on operational Flight Safety).
I am not an AH driver and I am not too sure if this action falls into JSP, FOB, Training Manual or RTS (and quite frankly I really don't care as the job was done) - but one thing I am pretty sure about is that if it had gone wrong there would have been people at all levels, behind all desks looking for their sh!t deflectors and going through every rule and regulation to cover their risk averse arses. Another sure thing - it most certainly would have got Big Brother off the number one news slot (UK public hate good news/success - much prefer a bit of negative spin, acutely embarrassed about the Prime Ministers war (nothing to do with them you see)).
My point is SH orientated and I really wonder what will it take to get the rumoured Chinnies procured or the HC3s out of the shed or NH90 at the rush - does someone really have to get put on the spot (as these crews did) to take such risks to do something that we are supposedly able to do and supposedly have resourced and supposedly have trained for? If the CH47 is too big for this kind of scenario (and lets be honest it was only a matter of time before a JPR op was going to be required in theatre), then lets get a Merlin/Sea King to do it. Surely, anything (dare I say Lynx?) must be better than the situation of an AH flying back into the fire fight with the so called 'Ground Protection Party' strapped to the wings? Those AH boys should have been doing what they do very well indeed - escort/rescort and not troop 'lifting'.
Forgive me if this sounds jealous or bitter - I am not. Although RAF I have worked with Teeney Weenies before on Ops and especially with AH I am really impressed all round (and although we would never admit in public all of us are impressed with how the whole AH programme has gone for you lot - and there is no doubt that the actions of this thread leave me feeling very humble. It really does show true fighting ethos.
My rather long winded point is that if we are going to do these kind of high tempo, high risk ground ops then lets support them correctly and not on a shoe string transferring the known risk to the operators on the ground that are already taking significant risk - lives will be lost unless firstly we procure more SH and secondly take the whole CSAR/Combat Recovery/JPR (whatever todays term is) seriously.
Well done boys.

:D Bravo MaroonMAn, Bravo! :D

Scibbler / Letsby et al,

Then yes I'll second the motion that the SH support needs sorted. My post was meant in a 'let's not jump to conclusions about why AH was used' kind of way.

I hope that when the HC3s come out of 'refit' that they can be put to good use quickly.

sw

Or the other type HC3s and crews that are already validated in that particular type of role!:ugh:

(Oops that could come back to haunt me in the future!)

I do not believe what my eyes saw in print here.....

When brave men are fighting and dying there are no "crew duty limits to be considered beyond getting into the aircraft and going to their aid and assistance!

In case you overlooked a small point of fact.....there's a war on!

The Marines and Apache folks demonstrated the concept for all to see....and admire!

Tied up on other Ops and unable to leave a routine mission for a Tactical Emergency....who is setting the priorities out there?

There may very well be a shortage of aircraft but a unit in contact with the enemy has priority over all others.

Have to agree with the bravery of the Marines/Sapper's and the AAC aircrew. I also agree with Maroonman that had it gone pearshaped then numerous staffofficers would be deploying sh1t deflectors so the guys on the ground receive it all instead of which they are of course trying to bask in the glory. I do hope the only people directly invloved get op gongs for it and not some SO3/2/1 who was nowhere near the incident.

I would also sujest the scandelous shortage of Helecopters should be all over the papers with fleet street clamouring for political scalps.

Sensless,

We have "jousted" many times on here but I can assure you that all the SH folk I know and the many I don't would no sooner "blow" their own dad than call "crew duty" in the scenario mentioned here:ugh:

Unlike you guys we are hanging out of our arses here on all aviation fronts, both hardware and pink irreplaceable ware and what these AH, booty and sapper guys have done is because we are so desperately underfunded.

But, and most f@ckin definitely worth mentioning is that this was an act of the most OUTSTANDING BRAVERY THAT I DEFY ANYONE POSTING ON HERE TO REPLICATE, cos I am pretty sure I would not have had the "minerals":D

Hats off guys:ok:

ABIW,

As a civvie wandering around loose in Mogadishu years ago I learned something by watching our latest generation of war fighters. A huge slanging match cranked up just outside the perimeter fence where we were assembling our helicopters. I put our guys in a safe place and went to see if we might want to do a runner someplace else. As I nosed around a bit looking for someone in a position to read me my tea leaves....I observed every single young person (of both sexes) either advancing to the gunfire or take up defensive positions facing the gunfire. Now I will readily admit some of them may not have qualifed as Super Troopers but at least they were rallying towards the sounds of the gunfire.

Our Lads and Lasses in Iraq and Afghanistan have us done us old farts proud. When one reads of actions like this one, it reinforces how remarkable their performance and devotion to duty and fellows is, has been and continues to be.

My angst is towards those who are not out there where the bullets are zinging about that deprive those that are, of the equipment, training, and support they deserve. I may poke fun now and then but I have never nor shall I ever denigrate these brave men and women of our armed forces.

Please accept the notion that as a US Army helicopter pilot who has served in combat, our creed requires us to go get the wounded no matter the risk. In Vietnam it was something we just did. Our whole mission was the support of the ground troops. I am quite sure British helicopter pilots are no different in that regard.

SASless,
Do not worry - your eyes were not deceiving you. Of course I know that no SH crew would ever have pulled the mythical crew duty card (unless they were so fatigued from a previous op/sortie that it would have been more dangerous for them toactually strap in).
Dont be silly - it has taken us years to shake the 'whole cloud of crew duty off' and hopefully everyone knows the difference between fatigue management and crew duty.
Just to ensure that you and the crews reading this are 100% sure that there is absolutely no doubt in the participants bravery - no doubt at all - and I think that was made clear.
My mentioning of crew duty came in the same breath as u/s cabs, other jobs etc etc - because I wasn't there then there may be some extraneous circumstance surrounding the mission that prevented a more robust Combat Recovery plan from being planned and executed. As I freely admitted these other factors in the heat of battle just may make my post superflous and the crews may have been up continuosly for the last 48 hours or the aircraft were called and went u/s on start - who knows?
The fact is that from afar it appears that there are not the resources to conduct this kind of mission (I even dared to say Lynx in this immediate role). And as others have said, there are units fully trained and validated in this role - or was that just a 'box ticking' exercise to give the appearance of having the capability? Surely if there was any Theatre that required it then with the on going high tempo, high risk kinetic ops present over there then one could argue that a commander on the ground should have this capability at his disposal rather than relying on 2 AH to fly back in.
No no no.......I most certainly wasn't passing comment on the crews in the cockpit at the moment in time - very brave, very brave indeed - but rarely do I use the word humble and it was in that post.

Folks, it seems that a mission emerged. The gents on site decided to do what they could NOW. Other assets apparently were not operational in the vicinity.

The tyrany of time and distance means you can't cover everything all the time. Lack of assets doesn't help.

Good on the lads that took it on themselves to get it done.

MM4,
Dont worry, I think that we know that the days of RAF/SH v AH bashing have long gone and your points are all valid.
But hey guys, we were not there, have no idea what operational context all of this was in and therefore can say or do nothing else but recognise the heroic bravery as operators.
All of the rest of the UK armchair pontification is purely white noise and I am sure that those on the ground will have already conducted a thorough de-brief/After Action with the relevant findings/lessons passed onto to those that need to know and are in a position to truly influence the future based on all the facts that were there that day.
:ok:

I can assure all those that may be concerned about whether the CH47 crews were up for the job or not, that they were othrewise tasked at the time of the rescue. Unfortunately they can only cover one emergency at a time. They were, however, there in time to give medical aid once the extraction had taken place, and subsequently flew L/Cpl Ford back to the hospital. Please do not jump to conclusions as to why the SH boys were not there when the decision had to be made.
RIP L/Cpl Ford.

I certainly hope not given the amount of time and training that has been done to get this far. As far as the people at the sharp end are concerned this role is more relevant now for the UK than it has ever been before in modern times.:hmm:

FutureIsHelos,

Are you implying that the Lance Corporal was still alive when extracted - or merely that one or more of the rescuers required medical aid?

Only a fuc@ing journo could ask that question, in a public forum that could well be viewed by family, friends and colleagues. You should be ashamed of yourself............ t@@ser:}

MaroonMan4,
You put it better than I could.
Official line remains that there are enough helicopters out there and the commander hasn't asked for any more.
Perhaps he hasn't, but I still find it hard to square with the fact that no helicopter with seats or room for a stretcher could be tasked to support an operation like this.
Paras who found themselves in the sh!t last summer have described to me calling up for air support and being told 'sorry, it's all busy'.
Is this really ok? Are you fellas just so used to doing so much with so little, getting by and hoping for the best, that nobody expects anything different any more?
To me it just seems very, very wrong.:sad:

Jacko, perhaps I can clarify a bit - it is thought LCpl Ford died instantly. Medics were required for four other men injured on the ground in initial assault, and extracted in the Vikings, I'm told.
Wishing them all a good recovery...

Notwithstanding the arguments about crew duty hours, lack of resources or whatever... the guys in theatre at the time did what good soldiers are trained to do.... use the best assets available to conduct an ad hoc, on the fly, quick rescue of a colleague they believed had been left behind in the melee.

No farting about waiting for some staff officer to make a decision some miles from the action, they saw a need, took stock of the assets immediately available, and executed a daring mission. I bet they were inundated with volunteers to strap themselves to the helos to go in and rescue L/Cpl Ford.

These guy adapted, improvised and overcame any shortfalls, not only does their bravery need applause, but their quick thinking and ability to plan such a mission. Getting in the sh:mad: t if the mission would have gone wrong would have been the last thing these guys had on their minds.

Jacko, see PM

Always Broken,

Just seeking clarification - since the post referred to seemed to be putting in the public domain a piece of (incorrect) information that really could have caused people distress.

Raising the idea that the Lance Corporal was not killed instantly really could cause the family, colleagues and friends anxiety and additional grief - questioning it was intended to get the truth confirmed. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

And I asked the question as an interested individual, and not as a journo, just as your reaction was, presumably, made in your capacity as a first-rate tw@t, and not in your official capacity as a C-130 Loadie.....

The dedication of the marines and AAC boys out there makes me proud to be a part of it. R.I.P. L/Cpl Ford.

Jacko,
I may well be a first rate **** but I am proud to say I am currently employed, and have been for the last 32 years in probably the most honourable profesion on the planet alonside some of the finest individuals a man could ever hope to meet:ok:

Just remind me what it is you do again::rolleyes:

And it's C130 "J" Loadie, a very important distinction:p

I'll just hijack the cat-fight thread for a moment to get back to the sub-thread started by MaroonMan4. If you take a big step back and look at the whole operation, you get a much better idea of the shortcuts, short measures and ineffective tactics our guys are forced to employ everyday because of lack of resources.

This was an assault on a heavily defended enemy fortification that had been under close surveillance for the last 2 months or so (so we know the enemy strengths were confirmed and understood). We kick off 200 troops to take it and get knocked back. Not only are we knocked back, but the heroic rescue attempt that started this thread is as a direct result of not having the right support in place to start the job. I don't know what the right number of troops was, but it clearly wasn't 200. I don't know what level of Combat Support was needed, but it was clearly more than they actually got.

I don't take anything from the Taliban's ability to hold a well defended position, but these are British Armed Forces for Christ's sake. We spend whatever it is each year on Defence, and get knocked back by Omar and the boys because the guys in theatre have to do it on a shoestring and with less than the required amount of supporting equipment.

No wonder the Government spin machine is all over this. The balls of steel approach by our fighting men to recover a fallen comrade is a much better story than asking why he had to be a victim in the first place. Yes, I know that even if the place had been flattened by Air Power for an hour before the assault, there would still have been casualties, but it is easier to accept the loss when you are taking the objectives. Taking losses because you are going in undermanned and underequipped is a lot harder to swallow.

That'll be your passengers then :p

This was an assault on a heavily defended enemy fortification that had been under close surveillance for the last 2 months or so (so we know the enemy strengths were confirmed and understood). We kick off 200 troops to take it and get knocked back.

Apologies if i have over simplified things here but my feeble little brain thinks - If it's a know enemy stronghold - **** it with a shed load of PW instead? Or have I missed something? Not wishing to impune the actions of real men, but given that it was a know enemy location better to stand off at 15000' and blow them to buggery? Again, no criticism on the RM intended.

I prefer the "Bomb them back (in this case...forward) to the stone age. Whistle up a B-52 for such a task. Why not send iron bombs instead of Iron Men....much more efficient and safer for the Men in the long run. Bombs are cheap....lives sure aren't!

SASless
But with ref to your last comment

Carpet bombing would not have helped the Marine that they thought was still alive on the ground that they were trying to rescue. Your previous posts here were apt as normal, your last one was crap and an offence to the families who will inevitably read this thread.

I think you'll find SASless was suggesting the enemy were bombed out of the stone age BEFORE the RM got involved.

At least that's the way I read it.

Tigs....


Let me make it very simple for you.

If no ground attack....no soldiers are exposed to harm.

Bombs are cheap.

Human lives are precious.

Use bombs, artillery, helicopter gunships, Spectre.....whatever before you attack on the ground.

use troops only when there is no other way of doing in the bad guys.

Do you catch my drift here? This is not a boxing contest using rules to make it a fair fight.

We should use our strenghts against their weaknesses.

Far better we rain Doom on them without risk to us. After it is all over with....then send in the troops to police up the area and search for usable intel and take DNA samples.