they did have a small impact, but the main thing with TTTE is they flew CLEAN, with no pylons

Perhaps I did not make myself clear. Regardless of whether TTTE Tornados flew with pylons or not, all I was trying to suggest was that,since they did not have laser fairings, they would not be prone to engine surges caused by such fairings. BTW, UK Mil, what is a "small fact"?

ukmil... wrong.

GR4... very definitely supersonic when stores removed.

:ok:

UK Mil

You say in your initial post that the GR4 will not go above Mach 1.3.....Surely, in anybody's language, that is definitely supersonic! Also, one of the benefits of hanging stores on the outboard pylons of an F3 was that it was determined to actually relieve stress on the wing. Perhaps some of the aerodynamicists will explain this.

Anorak removed!

UK MIL is generally in the ballpark.

After the introduction of the LRMTS (and associated reduction in Vne), active ramps only bought an extra nought point very small Mach, whether clean or not. Hardly worth the additional complexity and maintenance, so they were deleted.

Clean (or even with O/B stores) GRs are still supersonic.

kitwe

not an aerodynamicist but I'll have a go.
A weight of say 300kg at the end of the wing will require just 300kg of extra lift to maintain level flight. However, at the wing root, for say a 4m wing, the upward bending stresses will be reduced by 300x4 (1200)kg/metres.
Effect even greater under g.

Have I got this right boffins?

this one certainly isnt supersonic
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...ornado.203.jpg



meant as a bit of a giggle. was great to hear the crew were safe etc etc, go safely all of you.

L Peacock

Please check your PMs.

Ai, not bad, it's all about bending moments baby - more like mechanical engineering than aerodynamics though! I believe the effect is known as "nodal progression" and the outboard stores stop the ends of the wings flapping up and down like something that flaps up and down a lot :8

Incidently, the fuel in the wings helps to prevent torsional flexing so it remains in the wings for as long as possible to reduce fatigue.

Ukmil - are you sure you're a Tornado engineer? You sound more like a mechanic or technician if you were involved with inhibiting supersonic ramps... Anyway, you may find reading the Release to Service interesting - you can look up the speed limits for each different fit. In 10 fit (outboards but no tanks) it is supersonic and some!

Is the GR4 any slower than the GR1?
 

Just a quick note for what it's worth.
Back in Apr 1994, Goose Bay, with the Vicar in the back seat a couple of GR1 chaps got tapped by 2 CF-18s. Well the GR1 guys did the honourable thing and 'Ran away bravely!' Combat burner down a dry river bed with the Vicar twisted round in his seat shouting 'faster, faster!' When just before some kind of nodding PIO started the nose gunner saw 725 IAS in the HUD. Sorry, didn't have the capacity to select Mach. I guess the OAT was around 0 deg C.
I seem to recall the jets were in (would it be) B11 fit, ie 2 Hindenburger tanks, BOZ, ECM and 2 CBLS. Also seem to recall that Vmo in that fit was around 595 KIAS with the wings in 67.
Thank God I'm still alive! Thank God I'm out!!!!
Cheers... Max
ps Regards to Vicar, Cheese, Cas, Bunter, Sammy, JT, JP, Chaz and all the others unfortunate enough to be terrified by me!!:eek: :E

I can't be entirely sure about the GRs but the F3 was/is capable of speeds much higher than the RTS upper limits. Lack of engine thrust is not a problem with the F3 and it will still accelerate above 800kts IAS (clean).

Rumour hath it that some mate decided to have a go at the 'wot'll she do, mister' competition a few years ago in a F3. Full chat, pull to the vertical, establish a very gentle push as the thing passed FL lots - then it went a bit pear shaped. Double flame out, no pressurisation, battery power only.... But he got it down OK.

Then, so the rumour goes, Ba$tard Bill tried to hang him out to dry for grossly exceeding the RTS. Until, that is, someone happened to mention that surely Lightning reheat rotation take-offs were also outside the RTS and hadn't 'certain Air Officers' done such things when they were his age....

Whereupon it all went rather quiet....:cool:

All very technical and complicated, but why would you want to do those sorts of speeds, for any reason? When would it be either desirable or necessary for a Tonka operationally?

I think that B*ll had something to do with lifting and realigning a few roofs in the Farnborough area, around showtime one year and in an F4!

Respected and admired by all who do not know him well!

Samuel

When I flew Tornados at very high speeds, it was during development trials from Boscombe Down. At that time, there was no RTS so we had to test the aircraft so that MOD(PE) could make Service Release Recommendations to the RAF. We flew under Airworthiness Flight Limitations (AWFLS) promulgated by BAe/Panavia.

Thank you Kitwe, I understand that, and the enthusiasm of the "I wonder what she'll do" people who have always existed and long may they and their enthusiasm be around, but given all the reasons on this thread, there seem to be none which would include supersonic speed as a best option.

If I carry a pack and with the knowledge that I know where I'm going and what it's going to take to get there, when I come to a hill I don't increase speed and run up it, because then I might not get where I'm going!

Is supersonic necessary
 

Trust me Samuel, I think you'll find supersonic very practical when there's an enemy fighter at 4000m in your 6!

I do Max[trust you], and I guess you can never have too much power, but that wasn't the question, and I gather from the answers that, while it is possible, it doesn't happen too often for a variety of reasons. Given the circumstance you describe, and adding the factor that you have everything hanging that can hang, would you be able to accelerate fast enough?

Samuel

Max has hit the nail on the head. Although there can be few excuses for deliberately exceeeding Vne in peacetime, there will be occasions (such as the baddie with hostile intent in your 6) in times of tension/war when the only way to save your aircraft and your life is to park the throttles in the top left corner and run. If required, you can always jettison those stores that are limiting your speed/acceleration. In your example, if a 7ft tall baddie with murderous intent and armed with an axe was closing on you as you climbed your hill, would you not consider jettisoning your pack and running away?

Very much so! And downhill, albeit subxonic with my legs!

Thank you both for your explanations.