The Argie Air Force did themselves proud, that was never disputed, but unfortunately, for them, their Navy and Army didn't show the same balls, the Navy legged it as soon as the Brits turned up, even the famous submarine was sailing away from the islands, and the army 'conscripts' surrendered after little more than a 'fisticuffs'.

Pont,

No way even Maggie would have used a Nuke on the Argie's....thus it would have been an attack with conventional weapons.

There was great pressure on both sides to negotiate a peace....and until Maggie had a snit fit....it could have been done without the bloodshed. There is nothing worse than a Lady scorned as they say.

What a load of crock. There was no way that Uncle Junta was leaving unless he was pushed.

It was their last throw of the dice to divert the mainland civilian populations attention from their then dire straights.

I know that if Argentina invaded US territory, the President would negotiate a peaceful settlement.

Interesting to hear that SASless advocated a negotiated settlement. Wonder how his countrymen would behave if Hawaii was occupied by invaders? Thank God Maggie had bigger balls than most.

The Vulcan had not been a bomber for many years prior to the Falklands war and obviously it was difficult to place the bombs accurately. In fact, the Nimrod crews were getting better scores in visual bombing using, I believe, a chinagraph mark on the windscreen!

I was involved in getting LGBs on the Vulcan during the war and, on the only two trial deliveries, the crew achieved a CEA of around 7 feet from level release at 16,000feet. No airborne designator, however and little likelihood of good enough weather at the TOT. The RAF Harriers did really well with tossed LGBs towards the end of the war.

There is no doubt that the Vulcan threat to the mainland reduced the ability of the Argie air force to protect the elements on the islands.

SASLess,

I am not arguing whether you, with 20-20 hindsight of events 24 years ago, believe we would or we wouldn't, but may I remind you the it is not the policy of HMG to confirm or deny . . .

Essentially they blinked.

On the she would- she wouldn't arguement, the whole point about nuclear deterrence we might.

Now, 24 years later, you can ask the question again. If it happened again would he or wouldn't he. If you, sitting at Las Vegas, with your baseball cap and dark glasses, are absolutely positive that nuclear weapons would not be used, would you care to communicate same to your own nuclear triad?

No, thought not.

If you are not a member of the club dare you assume that club members would not use them?

How far up the arse of a nuclear weapon have you had your arm?

BTW, I was sitting immediately behind Euan Southby-Taylor when he got the message.

In a similar way he has negotiated a peaceful settlement with Al-Qaida, after the targetting of the Twin Towers.


Yeah Right.....:ugh:

SASLess,

I have followed your postings uncritically, accepting them at face value. I would like to know a bit more about you. It works wonders in building relationships.

There is at least one US Pprune with whom I hav exchanged credentials and can disagree with him publicly and make peace privately. It makes for a more sensitive and understanding arguement.

Would you care to tell me more about where you come from?

You really can't mean that, can you?

The last 'peacful' settlement a US President negotiated without bloodshed was the Cuba missile crisis in 1962.

Following your logic then Pont....the little Twerp in Tehran better not make too much noise then. If you folks even remotely thought about Nuking the Argies over a bunch of sheep clear at the other end of the world....then Bananabread is in deep trouble what with the Cowboy riding point for the world herd.

I think with the actual clarity that all these years of hind sight provide us, we know Nukes were not a real option for the Falklands. The Argies never guessed you Brits would be as hardnosed about a bit of trespassing as you were. They certainly did not prepare to defend the place as they should....and discovered there is a wee bit of difference between talking harshly and dealing harshly with the British military.

WWII American surplus Cruisers sure don't stand up to Nukey Subs for sure.

As proven, you folks had the ability to whip them with conventional arms and did so quite nicely.

Never had my arm up a nukes butt as you describe....but oddly enough have been involved in guarding things we never wish to see turned loose ever. I will freely admit the concept of an all out nuclear war is something I do not even care to contemplate. To know there are people in this world on both sides or should I say all sides now...that are willing to turn the keys and set loose those Demons scares me to death. I cannot imagine setting in a missile silo for a full twenty year career....drilling repeatedly like Pavlov's Dog....and then be given a chance to set one of the things off. Then doing it....that kind of mindset scares me more than a little.

I don't reckon I would pass the interview for that kind of job.

Depends on whether they think GWB has the same or bigger balls than MT.

I refer once again to the policy of HMG. It is not policy to confirm or deny . . .

No we don't. I refer the gentleman to my previous answer.

and that is an arguement that HMG would not have used nuclear weapons?

The answer is we did not think. We didn't dare.

Perhaps the 'little twerp in Tehran and the fat twerp in N Korea would do well to remember the name of the only nation on earth that has a record of aggressive use of nuclear power.

I seem to remember that he distorted the truth, to the rest of the World, in the process. Not a criticism, just an observation.

It's interesting to note that it was a WW2 vintage torpedo that did the job.

Hey, I did it, not for 20, but for 4 1/2 and I'm not warped :} (The lights are so pretty.........and who needs acid when you can crank up some Pink Floyd at 0200L and listen to the hum of the electronics :p

Seriously, nobody sat ICBM alert for more than 1-2 tours over a 20 year set, unlike the SAC bomber/tanker guys.

Key turning? Obviously, thought long and hard about it, but would have done it. Back then, the bad ol' Russkis were the only game in town so I really did think that if I had to turn keys, their warheads were already inbound.

MAD worked, as insane as it was. But it depended on both sides not wanting to risk the ultimate dice throw. I believe that Armydinnerjacket (stole that line from somebody....) would use his on Israel or elsewhere if he gets the chance.

I'd fully support a statement: "It shall be the policy of the United States to consider a nuclear attack on Israel or one elsewhere originating from Iran or North Korea as a direct attack upon the United States and will bring a devestating, immediate response."

But that's just me.

And now back to your originally scheduled thread.......

Gents,

In saying that Argentine Navy just fled for port and did nothing does a huge injustice to the Argentine Naval Air Arm. They achieved outstanding results, even shore based, considering what they had work with. I had the great pleasure to talk with an SuE pilot a few years ago and he was a pro of the highest order and really knew his trade.

GBZ,

You mean after all those shiny new things we chased around Rassay were not used? Heavens....to think I had to avert my eyes upon finding them too....wasn't cleared to know anything about them.

So help me....was told by a bearded chap wearing a Taxi Drivers hat....."When you find it....please don't look at it!"

Easiest one found was the one that found the Safety Boat vice the target.

A nuke may not have been necessary. A couple of 500 pounders down Buenos Aires High Street on a Saturday evening may have done the trick. I would wager that Galtieri couldn't have done the same to Oxford Street.

They had around 2 squadrons of Mirage IIIs, with only a limited night/lookdown-shootdown capability, to cover the whole of Argentina. Take a look at a map. One or two Vulcans a night, or low level during the day, could have run riot. And once the raids started they knew we had the bombers and the capability. And a stick of 20 x 1000lbs is not to be lightly dismissed.

Low level over Buenos Aries, presidential palace, parliament, miltiary headquarters? Ports, airfields, the list of potential targets was endless. Even leaflet drops in a low level pass would have had a dramatic effect.

Regardless, the fact is the generals withdrew the IIIs to protect the capital, and themselves rather than their troops in the field. Their bravery knew no bounds.... :hmm:

So Sasless, were you USMC and part of the security for nukes? Work in Norfolk for a while?

I read "Vulcan 607" which I greatly enjoyed but it got me thinking, dangerous I know, but with all the problems experienced with training Vulcan crews to tank and finding probes, would it have been at all feasible to convert a Victor back to a bomber? No tanking training, probes already fitted and 35 bombs versus 21. Just a thought.

Incidentally, I am at present reading "Razor's Edge: The Unofficial History of the Falklands War" by Hugh Bicheno, and his quite detailed map of the Stanley air defences does not show a Roland missile battery.

The Victor had much of its BombNav system removed. The precision GPI6 had been replaced by the older, simpler GPI 4. The ballistics computer had been removed. The armament electrics had probably been stripped out. The Vicotrs had been greatly reworked by BAE or who ever, including clipping a fair bit off each wing.

The Victor 2 had never been a bomber, only a missile carrier, so it did not have any bomb gear and probably no bombdoors. It did not have the Vulcan Heading Reference System either.

The Vulcan 2 Blue Steel had come with two sets of bombdoors, one for the missile body and one for the free-fall role.

I am sure a Victor crew will be able to confirm this.

Would we have managed to achieve this if we had procured the F-111 or kept TSR-2?

Yes.

UK-Libya-UK 1986

The TSR-2/F-111 was not a V-bomber replacement, it was a Canberra replacement in the tactical bomber role. Which is the type/role which the eventual substitute, the F-4, replaced/assumed.

Not to say that, if bought, the TSR-2 or F-111 would not have lead to the eventual phase out of the Vulcan as their main role disappeared, but it wasn´t the plan.

I think you'll find that B2's were quite capable of fulfilling the requirement to drop 35,000lbs of conventional weapons from their bomb bay, and get in and out higher and faster than the Vulcan. The Victors failing in the great scheme of things was Sir Frederick Handley Pages' (the owner of the company) refusal to join up with Hawker Siddely or British Aerospace, he lost a fair sized contract over that including another 30? Victors.

Still the government would never interfere with the free market now would it?

In design terms probably quite true but by the time of the Falklands all the B2s, which had never been free-fall bombers, had been through Hawker Siddley (forgot the name before) and undergone strip and rebuild. By the time of the FI they would have had no bomb doors, no NBS for the reasons stated, and few Nav Radar (Bomber) who would also have been out of practice. That said, a Vulcan Nav Rad could have used the kit instead.

I agree re converting back from K2 standard, I was trying to point out that the B2 was originally designed as a freefall bomber as Blue Steel was introduced after B2.

Anyway, an awful lot 'what ifs'. Would things have been better if the RN had kept its flat tops, would the Argies have considered invading if (fill in your own favourite theory concerning domestic unrest in Argentina/theoretical or actual oil reserves/UK not taking over responsibilities for the islands from the Spanish...etc) :ok:

I read Vulcan 607 in the summer and found it a real page turner and "unputdownably exciting" and I took part in BB1 so I knew what had happened!!!

The Victor 2's bomb bay was just a huge fuel tank so it couldn't have been resurrected as a bomber.

I think "the bearded bullshi**er", as Beags calls him,should feel very embarrassed at the revelation that he tried to contact the Vulcan.Everyone I've lent the book to has said what a complete ar*e he was for doing that.

I wonder if that was actually bullsh**? How much night flying actually took place especially at that time of the war?

Vulcan v the BUFF
 

At the Greenham Common airshow some years ago I was having a beer or three with a Yankee tanker crew whilst a Vulcan was performing. It had already been announced by HMG that the aircraft was to be 'retired'.
'Such a pity the British government have decided to break that aircraft up' said one of the cousins. 'They could have sold them to the States. We would have put them through the paint shop, given a racey paint job. Restarted production, sold them all over the world, making money for England and the U.S. Air Force would have had a bomber that really worked.'
Sitting just in front of us was a B-52 crew, shrinking lower in to their seats. I am sure they had not been 'noticed' when the remark was passed.

But Dr. Strangelove wouldn't have nearly as good. Kinda hard to have the 'dramatic' multi-level scenes of flight deck and nav/radar nav throwing the multiple switches, fighting fires, etc of the B-52 vs the Vulcan's 'a**es to elbows' coziness.................

And was there a way for Slim Pickens to access the Vulcan bomb bay?

Only on the one specially modified for the James Bond, Thunderball movie.

Looked good but overlooked that small detail of the huge nosewheel and oleo.

Irrespective of the whys, the therefores, the should haves etc etc that continue to surround this sortie nearly 25 years after the event. I, for one who was down there at the time, would like to say the message it gave out within the Task Group was well worth its weight in gold. Political or not I look back on it as a great feat of airmanship and just one of a series of occurrences that contributed to the positive end of the conflict.
Please feel free, however, to continue bickering.

SJ

I wasn't bickering Jungly, I was infact simply answering a question asked earlier in the thread.

Everyone stuck their necks out to win that war, no doubt about it and I think it made us all very proud to be British.

P.S. Sharky Ward is a tw:mad: t...

Gosh. And here was me believing for years that everything he wrote was true!

Mind you I thought that about Chickenhawk.

What a plonker.

Not to mention the Rear Crew Table, Pressure Bulkhead, Fuel Tank and two large fuse panels.

BZ SJ
 

The Black Buck missions achieved far more than was intended.

Bluntly put:

In terms of eliminating its primary objective - it failed.

In terms of scaring the cr@p out of the enemy and forcing them to remove their ONE trained interceptor sqdn north to protect other assets it worked, even if this was un-intended at the time.

This was all it achieved, but it was more than enough. Yes it contributed a lot to global warming, but with the Mirage 3s up north, the final outcome was made a lot easier because Sharkey Ward and Andy Auld and their teams did not have to fight them (even though the outcome would probably have been the same)

I remember the first raid as being a huge morale booster despite working 20hr days at the time.
A job very well done.

I've read Vulcan 607, quite recently, and it explained to me in some clarity [very necessary in my case] as to why the bomb run was at the angle it was, the antiquated equipment, the bomb-racks recovered from a scrap yard. etc It also made it equally clear that one hit on the runway was all that was required, and the effect on the Argentinians was significant.

SASless, you really need to read the book, and if you can't get one I'll be pleased to loan you mine! It'll blow your hairback!