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Military back-up refused for strike by firefighters
From The Times Online
For the first time the Government will not sanction emergency cover A MILLION householders will have almost no protection against fire today after the Government refused for the first time to provide military back-up for a firefighters’ strike. Fire chiefs said that people’s lives and property would be put at risk when firefighters stop work from 2pm to 10pm over proposals to cut jobs in Hertfordshire. The Fire Brigades’ Union (FBU) said that the situation could escalate as fire authorities implemented the modernisation deal reached in 2003 after a nine-month strike. Despite attempts to provide cover, Hertfordshire Fire and Rescue Service said last night that its fleet of 43 engines would be reduced to about three, with back-up from part-time firefighters in some areas. The three engines would be operated by managers, officials and firefighters who were prepared to cross picket lines. The catchment area includes parts of the busy M1, M25 and A1M, and the Buncefield oil depot, the site of a huge fire last December. The FBU has announced two further strikes in the county on May 26 and 31. Today’s strike will act as a test for further disputes. The Government confirmed that there would be no emergency cover from the Armed Forces. Angela Smith, the Fire and Rescue Minister, said that using soldiers to cover the strike would have “an unacceptable impact on defence activities”. Ms Smith said that the “green goddesses” had been sold, and the Armed Forces had not been trained to operate new fire engines. She said that after the White Paper on Fire Service reforms in 2003 it had been made clear that fire authorities should not be able to rely on the Armed Forces to provide cover. “They are simply not able to offer the same level of protection . . . and should not simply be rolled out to deal with each and every dispute,” she said. The dispute in Hertfordshire centres on the fire authority’s plan to close two part-time fire stations, with a loss of 23 jobs. The FBU says that 16 full-time posts would also be lost through measures to streamline services. Fire chiefs maintained yesterday that all 23 part-time workers would be used in fire prevention work and that no full-time jobs would be lost. They said that the main aim of the plan was to improve community safety, a key element of the modernisation plans agreed three years ago. Legislation after the deal gave fire authorities the power to close or merge stations. The FBU said yesterday that other brigades were considering industrial action over job cuts, including Northumberland, Cleveland, Surrey, South and North Wales. David Lloyd, a county councillor in charge of community safety, said: “The county is being held to ransom by the FBU. It is bully-boy tactics — they are holding a gun to our heads. Threatening to jeopardise public safety like this is not the way to progress discussions.” Mr Lloyd said every possible route had been explored to provide cover, including approaching other brigades and even other countries. But council officials said that FBU members in other brigades were refusing to cross picket lines. Tony Smith, vice-chairman of the FBU in Hertfordshire, said: “Our lawful strike will only have a short-term impact compared with the long-term impact of the cuts we are facing. If Whitehall is experimenting to see what happens if there is no military cover then it is inexcusable. The legal responsibility for providing emergency cover rests with the council and it is their responsibility to have contingency plans in place.” The FBU said that if there were a big incident, such as a terrorist attack, fire crews would return to work |
About time the fire shirkers tried to keep their public reputation when they're publicly exposed for using peoples lives as a bargaining chip in their pay talks.
Best story from the last Op Fresco was Capital Radio driving around London putting out the strikers braziers with a Green Goddess:D |
I've been out five years, but this makes my f***ing blood boil.
In the last strike by these "people", I was driving up the M1, northbound, somewhere in Yorkshire. I saw a Green Goddess struggling like a ba$tard up a hill on the M1 in the other direction, with police escort, all blues and twos. Must have been doing all of 20mph. All I could think of was some poor souls being in trouble, in fear of their lives and needing their help. And the unspeakable filth manning braziers outside firestations, full of perfectly serviceable and modern equipment. If I had come across one of those individuals in the next few hours I would have given them 6'2" of (very f***ing angry) bad news. Yet again, the Services, (dont recall if it was RN/Army/RAF manned Green Goddess, but it REALLY doesn't matter) mopped up the mess. At least I hope they did, on this occasion. We all volunteered to die for them too. It really GRIPS MY $HIT. God bless all of you. Going for a beer to calm down. After all, I can. I live in the free world. |
If a company does poor maintenance and it leads to an accident said company is liable to be charged with corporate manslaughter. People on strike who don't attend a fire in which people die, Bet they don't get prosecuted
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The cover that we provided at the last strike made we realise just what an easy job Fireman have. Only got called out once...to a woman who'd set her microwaved mince pies on fire!!
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Thank the Lord, Have done a stint on those Green Goddesses before and wasn't fun, especially trying to follow a Police Vauxhall senator with ABS and the like.
With regard to the Firepersons (is that what they are called nowadays) I feel they should have an enforced no right to strike the same as the military. I for one am sick of the sight of Fire strikes and will not be tooting my horn in anyones direction as a means of support. |
Originally Posted by Controversial Tim
About time the fire shirkers tried to keep their public reputation when they're publicly exposed for using peoples lives as a bargaining chip in their pay talks.
Probably because the local authority would rather spend the money on a creche facility for 'disadvantaged lesbian single mothers' or something equally daft....:rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by GeeRam
Actually I think you'll find that this isn't about pay, but the closure of fire stations and therefore a reduced public service.......which as this was in the area that only 5 months ago saw europe's largest post war conflagration seems bizarre.....:ugh:
Probably because the local authority would rather spend the money on a creche facility for 'disadvantaged lesbian single mothers' or something equally daft....:rolleyes: .... Or try and scrape together funds from a depleted budget as a result of militant commie firemen, getting paid more than me for a 3 day working week not including overtime and "jobs on the side", whilst suffering only a fraction of in service losses to personnel compared to the armed forces. :mad: :mad: :mad: |
Mba
If you don't like what you do then leave mate! Everytime the firemen subject comes up the right winghy element on here come out of the wood work. Fact 1. This is a local dispute over station closures and local working practices. Fact 2. They are allowed by law to strike if they so wish. Fact 3. To be able to organise a legal strike these days takes a miracle. Fact 4. The fact that HMG refuses to provide military emergency cover isn't the firemens problem or yours. Fact 5. In the real world out here we can say no and take action to back it up. Fact 6. People don't get paid whilst being on strike so unbelievable as this may seem to Guardian and Daily Mail readers, people don't go on strike for petty reasons! :rolleyes: |
Gorilla,
I must take issue with one of your "facts". In particular, "fact 3". Given that in "fact two", you had said that there is a legal right to strike, then a "miracle" is not necessary. Following the procedure is all. I also take issue with the use of "these days". This implies that in days of yore, it was a lot easier to bring the country to its knees. Good egg. The "Tolpuddle Martyrs" should have fallen into the grave and stayed there, never to be remembered, except by their relatives. No more significant than anyone else who died due to misadventure. Striking is just plain stupid. There are clear lessons throughout history. Mr Scargill and his band of merry men managed to decimate their industry. No more coalminers. Do we need coal? Yes. Is it cheaper to import it? Yes. Was the cost of labour the reason why it fell by the wayside? Yes. Is the coal still in the ground? Yes. Did Mr Gilchrist get his 40%? No. Did the country laugh at him? Yes. Is he still the FBU leader? No. Did the car industry have labour problems in the 70s? Yes. Have we got one now? A couple of assembly plants, none British owned. Hell, even the GM workers in Ellesmere Port decided it would be a good idea to strike to protest the reduction in output at their plant. WTF???? If the car they make doesnt sell, causing the company to lose money over it through striking isnt going to help, now is it? Here in the US, the Delta pilots were considering strike action after having pay cuts imposed, to help get out of bankruptcy. If they had gone on strike for even one day, the airline would have been finished, and a massive own goal scored by the pilots on behalf of every employee and every supplier and every traveller. The lessons of striking go on and on. The concept is as anachronistic as witch-dunking or fighting wars with mounted cavalry. It has no place in modern society. However, the military do not have the right to strike, but historically have been asked to cover the bare minimum fire cover when lesser individuals have gone on strike. To cap it all, they even blockade their equipment. A national disgrace. Thank the lord I live in a country where striking is not only industrially suicidal, it is viewed as downright unpatriotic. For God's sake, the firemen here are revered as HEROES. One only has to look at the caps and T-shirts being worn by people who are clearly not firemen. Some work to do by the firemen in the UK, I think. Quietly, unassumingly and diligently. They could be revered as heroes too. Just like the Armed Forces. |
Originally Posted by The Gorilla
Mba
Fact 4. The fact that HMG refuses to provide military emergency cover isn't the firemens problem or yours. |
O.K,
All you whinging f**kers out there complaining about the firefighters trying to stop the fire service being "leaned". The FBU are trying to stop the "modernisation", or maybe your more familiar with the term leaning, of the fire brigade. How many people on this forum have whinged about the RAF being leaned and what an absolute disaster that is???? This dispute isn't about money, it's about the government and local authorities shutting down fire stations, trimming back on services and giving YOU a poorer service! Centralsied call centres don't work (anyone tried to explain to the operator in scotland where the incident is when dialling 222(2)??), the fire brigade looked at other countries that use it and what a cr*p service it was. If the government get their way, when you ring 999 in the middle of the night because your house is on fire, the nearest "on call" fire station in your county may be 40 miles away and they will have to call in the full crew as it's only manned by the telephone answering crew at night! Be warned!!!! |
Clime
Only if you have a fire on a day they are on strike and let's be honest if that happened it wouldn't be your day would it? :} Roadster Are you English or American? |
Originally Posted by CashMachine
O.K,
All you whinging f**kers out there complaining about the firefighters trying to stop the fire service being "leaned". The FBU are trying to stop the "modernisation", or maybe your more familiar with the term leaning, of the fire brigade. How many people on this forum have whinged about the RAF being leaned and what an absolute disaster that is???? This dispute isn't about money, it's about the government and local authorities shutting down fire stations, trimming back on services and giving YOU a poorer service! Centralsied call centres don't work (anyone tried to explain to the operator in scotland where the incident is when dialling 222(2)??), the fire brigade looked at other countries that use it and what a cr*p service it was. If the government get their way, when you ring 999 in the middle of the night because your house is on fire, the nearest "on call" fire station in your county may be 40 miles away and they will have to call in the full crew as it's only manned by the telephone answering crew at night! Be warned!!!! It still doesnt detract from the fact they are paid far too much due to their commie methods of getting a pay rise, effectively letting poor old mrs bloggs house to burn down whilst they sit on the picket. I agree this time it may not be about pay, but it certainly has before and for that reason I wont show the buggers an ounce of sympathy |
IMHO, I think what the problem here is that a lot of people [in the forces] are still quite embittered with Op Fiasco, which, lets face it, took a lot of overworked people away from their overworked sections and families.
At the time, the firemen, as good and dedicated as they are, lost a lot of good will from the people covering their shifts, who were being paid an awful lot less to do an awful lot more (OOA's etc). It now seems that a 'cry wolf' situation has occured and any strike by them for whatever reason leaves a bitter taste. All IMHO of course.:) D |
Roadster
Well Said - Finally a Tommy Tank with a bit of nowce. The Fire Service or Resuce Brigade or whoever they are nowadays are poorly led and very poorly managed. However that does not hide the fact that the service is a disgrace and like the Police are in desparate need of reorganisation. Why would anybody nowadays believe that a system set up for the 60's and 70's be at its optimum performance today? They have lost the respect of the nation, however we want to put them back on the list of our hero's, yet they are making it very difficult. Who these days deserves a job for life? They may make it easier if they did some work at the station rather than the 3 part-time jobs that they have. Regards TOP |
Half the trouble was that, at the start of the dispute, the goverment stepped in to a pay deal that had already been thrashed out and agreed between the fire brigade and the local authorities who employ them. The government (who award themselves 30 odd % pay rises!!) said that they weren't happy with the deal and that it had to be changed and the fire brigade "modernised".
The government then threw the whole weight of it's spin doctors into telling us all that the fire fighters were scum, child killers, war mongers (one conservative MP actually said that the FBU were backing Saddam??(yes, I know the conservatives aren't in power)) and anything else they could to sour public sympathy. The FBU, on the other hand, relyed on "old fred who did well with the christmas doo" for their PR. Guess who won? Another lie the Bliar government spin doctors propogated was to over-inflate fire fighters wages. A basic firefighter in London actually gets paid less than an underground train driver! Four day week - There are plenty of shift systems in the RAF were people work so many days and then get so many days off!!!! Anyway, I don't know what you pilots are all complaining about, how many times have you seen, on this site, someone saying "and the best part is I get paid for something I enjoy doing"! Lastly, this dispute isn't about the FBU v the Armed forces like a lot of people seem to think it is, thats just another idea the Bliar spin doctors foster! |
Cashmachine
Extremely well said sir! :D |
I ran out of patience for the FBU a long time ago. If the British Army announced that all private soldiers were going on strike for £30k and that firemen would have to provide cover for our operational commitments it would be considered ludicrous. When I did FRESCO, I worked with many junior ranks who earned very much less than the £30k the firemen wanted, were hanging out of their arses from all their operational commitments and then had to retrain to spend months away from home putting out burning stolen cars with 50 year old equipment. Meanwhile, the firemen either sat on their arses impounding the taxpayers' fire engines or cracked on with their second jobs.
These Trotskyist f*ckers were quite simply using the lives of members of the public (I always thought it was a fireman's vocation and duty to protect the public - silly me) as bargaining chips to try and get paid far more than they are worth. It soon became apparent that your average FBU member is in it for his paycheck and his cushy conditions and couldn't give a sh1t about the lives of the public. It was blindingly obvious that citizens would die because of the FBU strike and sure enough, many did. Firemen already have a very good deal (ever wonder why RAF firemen are clamouring to join the Fire Service) but they're living in a dream world over-valuing themselves. I respect what firemen do (when they are at work) but I have a lot more respect for a Private who gets shot at for £14k a year. I agree with the concept of Military Aid to the Civil Community, but this should be a safety net to get the country out of a sticky situation when it hits the fan - it is NOT a system to allow firemen to walk out whenever they feel a bit iffy. When you have pilots and gp capts doing the Fire Service's job for them something has gone badly wrong and I don't think SACs were too chipper either. Sack the lot of them and then offer to re-employ them on sensible terms.:mad: Cash Machine, care to explain the relevence of I don't know what you pilots are all complaining about, how many times have you seen, on this site, someone saying "and the best part is I get paid for something I enjoy doing"! In fact, at the time, the firemen were striking for more pay than I received as a front line support helicopter pilot. Think about the relative levels of training, skill, ability, risk and conditions and tell me if the firemen are living in the real world. |
Otter's Pocket - Sorry to disappoint, I'm not a Tommy Tank. I'm as English as John Smith's Tadcaster Bitter. Or striking firefighters. I do however live in the US. I work for a UK company and go back three or four times a year.
Gorilla - I think that answers your question. It's a sad commentary on the UK, but having lived here a long while, I won't be going back to live. I didn't think I would ever say that, especially not when I was drawing the Queen's shilling. But things like this leave a bitter taste. Lots of Brits slag off the Septics, but at the end of the day, there's a gulf in terms of the patriotic nature of the two countries. My girlfriend is an elementary teacher. Her class "sponsors" an Army platoon in Iraq, sending them photos and goodies from home. The guys on the ground are really grateful, and explain in their letters that it reminds them of why they joined the military, to protect those back home, and a class of 24 9-year olds is a very good example. I can identify with that. Sorry for the thread drift, but in some small way, it is relevant to the firefighters' perceived lack of selflessness that we in the (In my case, ex-)military find so distasteful. |
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