Interesting that Mk7 actually did SAR. It was a tertiary role, and there was a school of thought that it would never happen, so don't bother - the theory being it would save money in the design. But I left it in, mainly because that part of the programme was a technical and contractual pre-requisite, and any delay would cost us half a million a month in penalties. Another reason was as discussed - uncertainty over Merlin capability. All that was ever said was that 5 Merlins would do the job of 8 SKs. (Hence, around 50 bought). But any assumption about Merlin having better technology, especially in avionics, went out the window when the ISD was missed by about 5-6 years. For example, its comms was older than SK6, which in turn was much older than ASaC and Mk4. I know that in 2001 it was still at a 1984 build standard.

The problem with continuous flying you mention would, in part, be down to the actual requirement being 16 cabs, but capped at 13. And no reserve were allowed. In fact, the RN's endorsement was 10. The extra 3 was purely a MoD(PE) initiative, which I got well and truly clobbered for by one particular beancounter. Luckily an Admiral stepped in and told him to....(obscene Naval term).

airsound, trust me, you are not the first person to accuse us WAFFU's of talking utter nonsense ........ and, sadly, there will be many, many, many after you who will say the same!!!!! All I can say is .......... it's a fair cop, Guv! :ok: But you picked up on the really important bit!!!!!!!!! So "BZ" as we would say!!! :E

Tuc, forgot all about our convo way back on the Mk. 7 fiasco. I did laugh when I got the GFE list across my desk for the Mk. 2 bits to feed into the Mk. 7 Mods Programme. The 2 was UOR if I recall (hence the hand-to-mouth shuffling of things like pallets) so one would have hoped the endorsed requirement for the replacement would have acknowledged those issues. Seemingly, if you manage to survive on a "beg-steal-borrow" Support Policy long enough ..... why not read that forward for the next Fleet?! Good on you/PE for sorting that out! Was that our certain "do the Mod over the weekend" friend again? And I never realised the Merlin had older kit than the SK 6! Never worked Merlin so always assumed it was a big jump forward. Ah well, H 'n' H was always one to "look on the bright side of life!" as Eric Idle wrote for Monty Python! Actually, "Monty Python" sums up an awful lot of stuff!!! :ok: Hey ho! H 'n' H

Purely anecdotal, but since 820 disappeared to Portsmouth last week, Merlin activity in the skies over West Cornwall has reduced to almost nothing.

Tuc,
The trip in question was minus jets, so there was just us, the 771 cab and a Merlin that took ages to get serviceable on the Fort boat. Nottingham did have a Lynx but that went for a swim. I must admit I can't remember whether we did any actual "rescues", but the winch was not just for show. So hats off to you for not bowing to pressure. We were actually ready to go to 2 fishermen floating in an empty storage container (1 dead unfortunately), but the RFA got there first.
I really think the "5 Merlins can do" statement has cost the Navy dearly. As you said, beancounters just don't understand what they're doing beyond their little bubble. The guy who first said it obviously meant in the ASW role, in a particular scenario, but why let the truth get in the way. Now we have a further attrition of ASW cabs by fitting a bunch of them with a bag (if only they had looked seriously at the storage cabs for Asac). Yes I know it's role fit, but you know that's cobblers. The image of doing a hot role change on deck when Red October comes knocking, is just for public consumption in my opinion.
H "n" H,
I keep forgetting that the language we spoke was very particular to the Navy and WAFFUs especially. I know my first attempts at producing a CV on leaving the RN needed "de-Mateloting" by my career transition advisor.

Probably because all the spares went to QNLZ by road the week before and the S cabs flew in last week.

The 5 Merlin for 8 SK might have worked had the ILS budget not been cut to the bone and beyond.

Lots of issues there Hot'n'High! You'll recall there were 10 Mk2 airframes, but 2 were attrition airframes, not aircraft, and there was no kit for them. The Radar System Upgrade (a small part of the ASaC Mk7 programme) endorsement said 10 fully fitted, but the top-up buy was uneconomical. Not much more to buy an extra 7 or 8. But there was a contradiction on the same page - SOIU said '96 hours continuous coverage from a CVS'. That worked out at 16 cabs. (And was prescient, as that is exactly what the squadron did in 2003). But Main Building doesn't like getting caught out on their arithmetic, so dug their heels in and said 10. But there was tacit approval after a quiet meeting with their boss, and swift support for the extra 3. Depending on who asked, we gave a different reason.

The Pallet Head and Scanner Assy was always a problem. We (you, me) were always loathe to send them back to 4th line, as the Swing Arm was an old piece of North Sea gas pipe and could never be certified. And there was no safety case possible for the 3000 psi accumulator. The poor rep from Thorn, who lived in the portacabin at the 849 hangar door, had his work cut out. He was brilliant.

MoD acquisition is littered with programmes that the end user assumed would be an improvement, but were actually endorsed as a 'replacement'. RMPA for Nimrod. BOWMAN was not required to be any better than Clansman. 'Entryism' to get the job off the ground, hoping your OR successors will manage to swing an upgrade. Merlin avionics was definitely in this category, if only because of the 'on board commonality' mandate for CVSs.

To be fair, the 'convert the fleet over a week-end' chap got on board and helped persuade OR on the 13 cabs business. The basic problem was that 99.9% of the RN thought it was a minor Transmitter power hike, with colour displays. Poor communication. When your AEO sussed his cabs would disappear for a 3 month upgrade, I was asked to do Q&A sessions on what you were getting. I remember the pilot who was always front and centre and eager to learn was Andy Wilson, who was killed in 2003. A lot of the nice to have tweaks came from him.


Oldgrubber

"If only they had looked seriously at the storage cabs for Asac".

Ferranti's Blue Vixen, in a Merlin, won the 'ASaC' radar job hands down in 1993. There was a political overrule, and we were told to give the radar contract to Racal, and upgrade Searchwater LAST. Hence, the honking great list of 3,000+ items handed to Hot'n'High, whose boss had nil resources as everyone 'knew' it was to be Merlin with a new radar. Problem was, Racal had never bid - it was purely a political decision to protect jobs in the Minister's constituency. The programme was frozen for 6 months to allow them to work out what we wanted. (They never did). Retention of Sea King was directed, but it turned out to be a good decision (for the wrong reason) as there was no guarantee Merlin would be ready. There were too many unknowns on Merlin in 1993, and it could have ended up as a Chinook Mk3 or Nimrod cock-up; which were both predicted and notified at the time. You'll recall FOAEW and then MASC worked on the assumption that the Sea King consoles would simply be transferred to whatever platform they chose. Not gonna happen when the consoles are part of the superstructure. What has become Crowsnest was always going to be delayed until the genius who made that assumption was promoted out of the way. Little changes!

Well, Tuc, Not_a_boffin, Oldgrubber, Martin the Martian, SLXOwft and others, a fairly comprehensive list of concerns raised in the last few days - and, OG, exactly my thoughts re the "role-change" concept from ASW to AEW. Sounds good in theory ...... I remembered that point after I'd posted and was en-route to the Beer Garden for a couple of hours "on task"! :ok: And, Tuc, glad our "friend" came good in the end. :)

So, WE BF, I think you have some inkling now as to why there is a degree of concern and maybe why things don't add up reading across from CVS to QE - there are just so many factors influencing this - some going back more than a few years now! And none are reflected in the current MoD "Tweets" - unsurprisingly!

I'll bow out of this convo now, but, in departing, I think I can probably say on behalf of all the above Posters, I wish the Lads and Lassies tasked to make this all work all the best. Ultimately, it's in the Cab or on the Flight Deck or down in the Shed and in the AED Workshops where it all comes to rest - and it's down to the skill and, often, ingenuity of each and every one of them to make the best of it.

Fly Safe - Fly Navy! :ok:

Maybe we should send the QE to Jersey?

Is it me - or does this appear to be a Merlin HM2 flying from Yeovil, presumably sent back to Leonardo to have the structural modifications to carry the Crowsnest gear - which would have removed it from the deployable fleet for a while? Aircraft ZH864:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....9fcab1c94e.png

Also this morning there was a Merlin HM2 up from Culdrose.

I believe '864 has been 'under the care of' Leonardo since 2019. So I assume a ASAC D&T cab.

Picture from May 2020 of her with a Bag in this article from 2020. https://www.navylookout.com/a-pale-i...arrier-strike/

BZ H'n'H

Thankfully, this is intended to be a showing the flag Ex and I trust will remain so. If things got nasty East of Suez tactics based the assumptions of the North Atlantic would IHMO go over the side. Unless in range of land based (or a US CVBG) support and intel, the threat axes would be uncertain. As Mog might remind us, 39 years ago the CANA delivered Exocets by attacking from an unexpected direction hence avoiding the AAW pickets.

After all the negative stuff about the outbound carrier group, how about a spot of positive stuff that doesn't come from WEBF, hmmm? This is from Thin Pinstriped Line. (My bold bits!)

airsound

"deliveries of the initial 48 (with more very likely)"

IIRC when the Defence Review was published the same blog said that the number of extra F-35's was a long way off if ever?

Didn't a USMC AV-8B unit deploy to Illustrious in about 2007/8 whilst our Harriers were busy somewhere hot and high?

" in July 2007, Illustrious took part in a US-led Joint Task Force Exercise (JTFX) off the eastern coast of the United States (for which she hosted 14 US Harrier jets and 200 US Marines) before returning to Portsmouth the following month"

So yes but you don't want to get in the way of a good press release do you?

If only you understood the difference between what happened in that instance in 2007 and what is happening now.

Still, you don't want to get in the way of a good dig at the carrier programme or TPL, do you?

Asturias - when you refer to 'a good press release', I assume you're referring to the Thin Pinstriped Line that I quoted at post #6208.

That is definitely (note the spelling, Line of Duty folks, particularly Detective Superintendent Buckells...), anyway, that is definately not a press release. It is a blog by a guy called Humphrey, who is, as far as I know, an employee of HMG, but who blogs very much on their own views. Humphrey is not afraid of denigrating government efforts when necessary.

airsound

Well said, Airsound. This is no puff piece press release; it is the views of someone who is always reasoned, coherent, and apparently well informed. Sir Humphrey is no one's poodle and has consistently given deserved criticism. I hope he (or she) doesn't object to me quoting further.

Looks like continuous ASW might be on the menu soon:

"If only you understood the difference between what happened in that instance in 2007 and what is happening now."

I was answering Dave's question - and I really would like to know what the differences are between the 2 deployments please. As you say I'm not a big fan of the UK Carrier programme - I've consistently argued the case for more frigates and more SSN's instead.

"Asturias - when you refer to 'a good press release', I assume you're referring to the Thin Pinstriped Line that I quoted at post #6208."

Partly - and also to the large number of updates provided by WEBF. I find the TPL informative - but I'm sure they previously suggested that it would be a very long time before the extra F-35's were purchased - which was a bit at odds with their latest thoughts

There is a huge difference between a dozen cabs hopping aboard for a couple of weeks scripted exercise off the US coast and a similar number and all their associated support embarking for a six month deployment to the other side of the world. Where they have to be prepared for anything and are a fully integrated part of the CSG.

That should be obvious to anyone and is partly why it's difficult to take your views on FF and SSN seriously.