Romanians I reckon, as I'm sure you remember from all the time spent there Nige!

Ah yes, the Romanians - we were as well protected as the Romanians!

Whatever the shennanigans about the Global Threat Matrix, everyone agreed with our assessment that night ops were the only way ahead.

Although night ops were not without their problems - white-light approaches to BAG/KAB were quite exciting if you didn't have gogs! Nonetheless, these approaches prevented 'the locals' from targeting us too easily but the 'ground-launched meteorites' came far too close on a number of occasions for some people to question what we were doing.

As far as we were concerned, daylight ops would have been suicide BUT a number of detcos had to fight off the hierarchical orders to fly in daylight - just ask them.

Buff's finest hour
 

"We asked 1* Mil Adviser how he felt about flying Hoon in on a non flare equipped aircraft. He assured us that all Hercules aircraft had defensive systems. I showed him the tie down chain under my seat and assured him that he was mistaken. 1* Mil Adviser assured us that threat assessments were being done, but as Hoon got on the flight deck 1* was visibly shaken as he headed to the back. 1* came back up on the flight deck later and was much more composed. With Hoon sleeping on the bunk, 1* said again about how the intel assessments were constantly reviewed, and that we would never be sent in if the threat was too high. I quoted him the number of MANPAD shots that had been assessed in theatre from the intel brief we had received and asked him how many you had to have before it was unsafe to send in slicks. He got pi$$ed off and said something about being in the service and to accept some risk. Hoon woke up in time for the descent so we didn't have much of a chance to talk, but when we got on the ground I asked for our flak jackets back. The look on he and his party's faces was priceless."


Remember that Ingram stated that all Hercs had a DAS later that year. I am quite distressed at the mo. I have been told that an RAF IntO was ordered to downgrade the Threat assessment in theatre. Not good. For the record the first part of Afg War was under Op "Darkside," by the time the Rumanians/Greek/ still better DAS than us ac was at KHI the Op was called something else.

Ah yes, the Ops had different names but aswe were all mostly going to the same places (KAB/BAG) at the same time, I doubt the locals knew we had different Op tags!
Irecall the story too and I don't know what the 1* is doing right now- but he may be able to corroborate the story - clearly he was being fed B-Sh1t by someone and he was probably not best pleased.

It kind of matters to me because I think I am owed a gong. Just takes the shine off it that you have to apply for it.

I should add that Ingram was being advised by a very senior chap at Group. I hope the Chiefs are reading this tomorrow.

This was probably the same sort of person (or persons) who apparently ignore the pleas from their own staff.

I can't believe you and your crew didn't qualify for the Afghan GSM thingy and clasp - suggest you revisit that one.

Hmmm, I recall someone mentioning a briefing document to the politicians 'from the military' that 'sold us down the river'. Whether this was from grope or MOD, I'm not sure - but it will be on file somewhere - probably a copy in Stn Ops?

Definitely person in this case.....

However, he's probably retired now and got a cushy consultancy job with Airbus or BWofS, sadly.:mad:

errrrr, perhaps not.

Aaah, that will be the same C17 with the fuel tank inerting system then.

A constituent received this reply from his MP Mr David Kidney regarding a question to Adam Ingram about the nature of protection of Herc crews in Aghanistan in 2002. The reply is dated 30 Jan 2006.


"I spoke to Adam Ingram personally after the story in the Mail on Sunday. I am satisfied with his explanation of the process for deciding which defences to retro-fit and in which order. I am also satisfied with his explanation for his reply to me in 2002. You are my constituent and I will do as you request and seek assurances about the defences of our aircraft in Iraq and Afghanistan today."

If I may remind you, Ingram's reply in 2002........

"On the C130 Hercules aircraft engaged in Afghanistan area of operations firstly I can assure you that all C130 aircraft operating in Afghanistan are provided with a suite of defensive aids.........We are confident that for all military flights into Afghanistan appropriate self-protection measures are in place."

The recent reply came after the now legendary coiling of chains and sitting on flak jackets became public knowledge. I did hear a twist on this, one crew emptied the contents of the ac library and spread them around the flight deck floor. I knew those books would come in useful one day! Does all this strike you as odd? Am I missing something here? Can someone define DAS and flight deck armour for me?

Rest assured I have asked the Defence Committee to establish when the MK3 was transformed into the MK3A.

Gorilla thanks for the kind words, I am still trying to work out who you are.
"Duty of Care" is an interesting subject, more later.

Glad I am not going mad then. Found this answer in Hansard from a year ago. So now we are into appropriate defensive countermeasures. I guess the ac library does not count then.....




James Gray (North Wiltshire, Con) Hansard source
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many Hercules C130J and C130K aircraft have a full defensive aids suite.
Geoff Hoon (Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence) Hansard source
All of the Hercules C130K fleet and about half of the 25 Hercules C130J fleet are equipped with infra-red defensive countermeasures. Additionally, some of these aircraft have an enhanced defensive capability. Only Hercules with appropriate defensive countermeasures are deployed to operational theatres. Other Hercules are used on routine air transport tasks elsewhere.

Nige

Is there anything we can do to assist? Would writing to my MP help or not? If so what specific points of pressure should we apply?

I will PM you with my ID..

TG

Ah
But we all had (well mostly, anyway) that ancient old 60-70s system that was 'trashed' by Trial Bishop or whatever it was. Either way, that bit of kit was rendered useless by the Int in theatre about 'the threat'. I think I heard someone call our 'DAS' the 'ALQ-Choclate Fireguard'!

So, of course, we all had DAS.........NOT!:uhoh: :uhoh:

You are quite right about the quality of the DAS Flip, but the fact is that the quoted statements did not mention Flt Deck Armour, and were technically correct. I'm not making excuses for the policy, but it's important to realise that we are dealing with some v wriggly slimy people here and it's essential to get your facts straight.

Yep - you are quite right in that respect - the old kit was quoted by the politicos as 'Defensive Aids' but that doesn't make things right.

All the expert advice was that what little kit we had wasn't good enough and SPINs gave clear guidance as to what was 'appropriate'. Sadly, our own 'top brass' and, thereby, the politicians ignored the advice from below and what was 'best practice' - so selling us down the river. It would have been nice if they had bothered to tell us the 'whys and wherefores' of the sacrifice we could be making....but alas!!!!??

As I have said before, war is nasty and we took The Queen's money but I am sure Her Majesty would have been mortified to learn of the risks that were taken with the lives of Her loyal subjects - crews and pax - just to save face in MOD! However, I can guarantee that their Lordships and the Ministers they serve, will not see it like that and will squirm and swerve their way out of it somehow - as they always do!:{ :{

I think we are in the crux of it now. I am not a lawyer but I make the following observations. There is no way IRCM, that is M for measure, note the use of the singular, can count as a "suite of defensive aids".. It was optimized, we all know what for. There were other missiles in theatre (We are not going to discuss current int here). We had absolutely no protection against the other missiles. We had absolutely no protection against ground fire. We had no MWS, no RWR, no flares, no flight deck armour and of course no foam. The use of IRCM alone for the defence of the ac, taking in to account the results of the OEU trial days before the "slicks" went in, was entirely INAPPROPRIATE. Methinks there may be another explanation for the Ministers statement. I let you guess. I do now believe that the Minister in question, the Minister of State for Armed Forces should consider his position. For the record the first of the MK3A Hercules with DAS etc rolled out in 2003, months after Mr Ingram made his statement about Hercules being appropriately protected in summer 2002.

Mmmm....it seems to me nige that your own political desires sometimes get the better of you..!!! We will not help in anyway,shape or form the crews and pax of the AT fleet by the falling on the sword of any minister. I'm fully behind your stand on this issue but, an its a big but, the problem as I see it is one of the higher echelons of the RAF/MOD who don't really care about the AT fleet,its passengers whilst airbourne or crews. All colours of political party would have done the same thing....its the lack of moral(e) leadership up high that blights us.

Senior RAF positions are still fed by fast jet pilots who by historical virtue are deemed the best commanders...lol. Any truckie boss worth his pay scale would have put this right years ago.

alot less than 5d2d

I would be delighted if you could tell me what political party I belong to.

Please go ahead.

Whist I am waiting for the answer, I would like to add that Ingram made his first statement in 2002. I was incensed at the time because my crew were flying into Afghanistan night after night with no protection. I kept quiet then, because it would have been too damaging to publicise a hazardous situation. When I approached my own Stn Cdr I was told that, unless an ac was shot down no money would be available for adequate protection. For5d2d to be supporting his Armed Forces Minister after the deception and inconsistencies contained in his statements is frankly, delusional. Why do you keep referring to my political ambitions, when the only ambition that I have in this matter is to secure the safety for Hercules crews, free from the lies of politicians.

My point seems to have been misunderstood, at this moment in time a change of government would not change the outcome!!!Unless those who we directly serve take it upon themselves to have our interests at heart we are all doomed to take chances and depend wholly on our luck.

Oh and if it helps my guess would be blue dear boy...:rolleyes:

5d2d