Flipster

I agree with what you say, but may I make two observations;

“RWR and Sidewinders overnight in the hangar”

There is a difference between fitting such kit in accordance with detailed instructions that someone with foresight prepared long ago, presumably underpinned by full installation design, design incorporation, testing and trials etc; and the scenario I describe which ignores the problem in the first place.


“that there was no money available, so there was no point asking”

I know you are correct and that this attitude prevails. But, the procurement system works entirely on the principle that, if you don’t ask, you don’t get. I described, in part, the process by which the operator asks. If you ask, there will always be an audit trail to the decision. Not asking invites the accusation SoS is making – that because there was no request there can be no blame at ministerial or higher MoD level. Then you start arguing about the culture created by political decsions and get bogged down......

For what it's worth.
 

On 10 May 06 the Deputy Chief of Defence Logistics (DCDL) Mr Tim Flesher has invited all DLO staff to "Ask the DCDL" work related questions. His answers being published shortly afterwards. I will see if I can get a question emailed to him regarding proposals for Explosion Retarding Foam on all RAF AT and those Royal Sqn ac employed on Ops. I make no guarantees that I'll get a reply though.

Tucumseh,

Yep spot on - that is why we DID ask and why 2 Gp did the digging. Proving it on the other hand might require some probing - but it will be possible, so there are no worries there.

I can recall the arguments of getting DIRCM and Flight Deck Armour. HQ 2 gp experts had written countless business cases for such stuff in the past - as they have for fire suppressants, I believe. All they had to do was to dig out the last one that had been refused and try again.

Eventually, people in MOD took heed of our concerns about the threat levels and coughed up - albeit very reluctantly. The procurement guys had also done their stuff and the ac went over to the US quite quickly. Although this had an impact on training and ops, I'd like to think it was worthwhile all the hard work completed by some absolute stars at Gp, HQSTC, MOD and DPA/DLO - at lower levels mind you!

So so you see, MOD is (and has always been) aware - over to you minister!

Bluntend - thanks. Nige- watch this space!

fantaman, remember one thing john reid is a politican so everything that has comeout of his mouth is a lie. i recall a while back that a date mentioned for the fitting of foam was to be july. why ? i have no idea. maybe the wind will be in the right direction and the little leprachauns that the minister clearly sees whilst on his planet have forecast that the moon will be in the seventh quarter or something equally mad! one point i keep trying to make is that this should have been DONE ahes ago. of course, prior to the crash when requests were made. nonetheless, i lost bob 16 months ago the inquiry findings were made public 6 months ago yet we are still talking about it.:mad: :mad: :mad: ! why not shut the F*** UP Mr Reid stop pointing fingers and get it sorted now. NOT SOME AIRCRAFT SOON, ALL AIRCRAFT NOW!!! it's so simple. but no he is another who likes to court the media.

this is the way i see things guys. it may be too simplistic and may not have a place in your debate as i'm not clever enough to know what your abbrevbiations mean. feel free to agree or disagree but i would appreciate some feedback on this simple theory. it doesn't make financial sense. all the money that has been spent on the investigation, recovery of bodies, repatriation, accomodation and travel, memorial services, funerals, pensions, manpower......aircraft and training could have been used sorting out the fleet of alberts and still given you money for your busfare home and a bag of chips! as a grieving relative all i can do is ask why? why does this make more sense? why do you think that you have been very clever by saving money? why do you pride your self on the decision that as a ministry you have made? i see a decision to hang back from the fitting of explosive technology was nothing more than a gamble. rather than follow the example that was made by other forces as a result of their experiences you took a gamble as the pound signs made more of an impact than the lives that you are responsible for. it was chosen to wait and see if we would lose an RAF ac then see if you have to do something, but hope that there will not be too many on board when the INEVITABLE happens. i'm sorry mr reid you say how can you put a price on human life? well , you just have. all because people sign up to take the queens shilling it does'nt mean that they are expendable and they have forfeited their right to life. as i've said before there are risks and then there are unacceptable risks.

sorry for that rant. i'm not too proud to admit that sometimes i get a bit emotional with this. i'm upset that i do. i do not want to be seen as just the emotional bit that gets wheeled on when it suits. there is more to me than that. i want to do more to help. i feel like i'm not helping enough and i've been left frustrated by a lack of willingness by some media to take this issue and run front page full coverage with it. i find it hard to see that we get consigned to small columns deep in the paper.

i have to say that i'm also very ashamed by my recent behaviour. i have to admit to losing it big time last night and nearly threw in the towel. i have had so many problems with the computer at home. i keep trying to post a reply yet when i press submit it's lost. i tied three times and took ages as i'm not the fastest typer in the world, but to no avail. after a hard shift at the hospital interspersed with the farce of john reid then all my work lost again on the 'puter i caved in. i'm sorry if i've let you down becasue of it. there is no room for emotion and wobblies in this. i have come to another computer today to try my luck. last night i was unable to see that clearly to be able to stop myself from giving in. i can't walk away from this i know that, not till i have got all of you protected. i could'nt help my brother and the other guys and if i give in now i'll definitely be making sure their deaths are for nothing.

i will try some more tv contacts today but i have to say i'm starting to draw blanks. i will also be speaking with the MP who has offered his interest and support to see if i can't get this back into parliament. i'm working on the webpage which will work as a blog but not being very computer literate i may be a little time.

keep it going boys. i'm seeing a solicitor that nige suggested next week. i'll let you know what i'm doing then after that. as for the "comments" that james gray has said i'm forwarding that to the families as we speak. i was unable to get on the pprune on tues night as the page would not be displayed. so i'm a little behind....i wish in fact anyone who's seen me on tv knows i've dot a big behind!ha ha!

please don't worry about the families. i have been networking as has my mother and it would seem that there is nothing but support for all of you and this campaign. methinks someone is being crafty and stirring!if there are any families who are concerned and want updating please PM me or get my contact dtails. i will speak with you quite happily. we can't bring our loved ones back but we can stop more going.

Quick question...
 

Do other Commonwealth Air Forces have the foam fitted on their Hercs (or other AT ac for that matter)?

Chappie

Don't throw in the towel, you and nige are the ones who are binding us all together. You are doing all the hard work that will pay off soon. People like me are just nibbling at the edges e-mailing MP's etc.

Don't stop never surrender.

Reid will fall off his perch and we will all be there to gloat when it happens. Any one remember Portillo? No me neither!!

Explosive- Suppressant Foam..... say what? I may be ready to jump straight back into my box, BUT..... what are they talking about foam for? Inhert Gas maybe.... never worked on Hercs so could be wrong, but the Chinook had a cobra fire supression unit...... round fires into self sealing tanks, momentary pressure drop sensed, cobra system fires preventing risk of vapour explosion. Job done!

Can't imagine a can of gap filler in a tank of Jet-A1 would work?

TBK

Chin up Chappie,

You are integral to this and your emotional involvement is a great strength of the whole case - by showing solidarity in the face of such enormous personal pressure, you indicate that you mean business, especially as you have the families' support and I still find myself in awe of your determination.

If ever we talk in TLAs (three letter abbreviations) that you cannot fathom, please don't be afraid to ask. We, like doctors, lawyers and politicians, hide behind these TLAs in case anyone should find out that we are only human and, actually, quite simple and predictable!

As usual, you have highlighted our (techically-minded blokes) errant focus on minor details and procedures. You are absolutely right to draw our attention back to the big picture - other forces had this stuff - why not us?

ESF costs very little and is relatively simple to fit, as the Aussies have proved. A sensible taxpayer (and voter) may well ask why the MOD (who are meant to have the big picture) have not got it sorted and sooner - they have failed to provide any sensible answers yet. You are right, the timescale and the applicability of this relatively cheap modification is a big worry for me and for others, especially when you consider what our forces are presently doing.

I will back you up and repeat "ALL, NOW please".

Why the media have not picked this up and run with it, I'm not sure - probably because they are tied up with the Home Office's 'Lost Foreign Criminals Scandal'. However, I do know that the Parliamentary Defence Committee may still be asking questions. The AOC will be questioned by Nige today and there may be some fall-out from that, which the media might want to follow up, so all is not lost.

However, guys and girls, Nige and Chappie would love some more 'hard' info on the history of herc protection - it doesn't matter whom or when. Please contact them as we are all on the same side.

Keep plugging at it Chappie.

Flipster

Who was Portaloo?

My understanding is that the foam works in the same way as the gauze in a Davies lamp, preventing flame front propogation.

..but I may be completely wrong.

Economies Cost Lives
 

Years ago a concious decision was made that there would be no ejection seat for rear crew members in 'V' bombers. How many lives were lost as a result of that bit of 'saving'? Does anybody have statistics? I'd bet more than 100.

Mike is right and thnaks for the links.
Cost saving cost lives yep A2 spot-on and in this case,

not much cost = 10 lives

What a waste of great people!

I'd love to know to which 'pilots' Reid spoke and what was actually said. I can't believe anyone at Lyneham didn't want foam in the their wings, so it is probably Reid's lot playing with words...again. More likely, Reid probably spoke to the cleaners when he visited Lyneham - because all the crews were away in the desert!

Anyone here prepared to comment about the 'overheard' conversation?

FF

Good post and you are right to point that out. I would suspect that because of the pressure already exerted, the ac actually in theatre ARE as well protected as any of ours have ever been. But we have so few that if one breaks, there is not another to spare, so the pressure to use slick/dumb frames increases. For now, I would think we can't risk that and our crews are better protected in AFG than ever we were in 2002/3.

Also, I'd love to know to which 'pilots' Reid has spoken and what was actually said. I can't believe anyone at Lyneham didn't want foam in the their wings, so it is probably Reid's lot playing with words...again. More likely, Reid probably spoke to the cleaners when he visited Lyneham - because all the crews were away in the desert!

Anyone here prepared to comment about an 'overheard' conversation?

Flipster

Just watched the channel 4 clip from last night. Makes you angry to hear JR talk such utter bo:mad:cks.

In summary it was not the MOD's fault, the enemy were supposed to be using MANPADs.

i know that john reid was on channel four last night but i wonder if anyone had the balls to tell him that he was on the wrong programme! correct me if i'm wrong but surely if you are going to put a play on words then countdown is the prog. you need not the news.

methinks that mrs reid will be cursing her hubby for the stained pants that are in the wash now as he is no doubt s******g himself over what he said on the radio four programme!

thanks for the support. not that ishould be getting any after my shameful inability to face up to pressure last night. feel slightly more sane this am after having slept. i'm pretty confident that i've got reid over a barrel. i'm looking forward to the solicitors meeting next week.

was in the sun this am...with clothes on i hasten to add! i was also in the local paper as well having managed to get my parents to open up. they should be in the birminham times (something like that) and stafford local paper. a few pokes were made at the disgusting way these fine men are confined to nothing more than a few paragraphs.

i have an idea that i'm trying to get voiced. if i'm allowed ( limited because of my exclusive thing i signed stupidly) i want a national to do a petition so that slips get signed and sent on to me or them asking for a vote of yes or no to foam. then and only then can a paper call what they are doing a campaign!...take note daily mail. i'll keep you posted ..again.

time to go and write some angry letters and make angry phonecalls and shout grrr alot! james gray being one of them! i don't know if this is useful but iknow someone who works on the hercs at marshalls so if you want me to contact him just ask. talking of james gray can someone please copy off the article that viv forwarded and put it around 47 squadron and the rest of lyneham so that his local election bid is foiled. i don't know if he is taking part but if one of you can go to his surgery and ask him to justify the bile that has come out of his mouth then please let me know. that man sat and had lunch with me at the repatriation and offered his asisstance and support. the same as reid at the memorial when he stated to families if there is anything i can do please ask.

catch you later. apologies for my sulk at the computer and inadequacies.

Has your inadequate computer keyboard got a 'shift' key? ;)

You're doin' my head in!

You can shout louder with capitals. GRRRR!!! :}

I must admit I did wonder who Dr John Reid was talking to on his latest C130 adventure.Somebody should know...J or K...anyone got the 'gen'.As for blaming the SQN...well,we all know the culture of dont ask dont get,but I can imagine the chat cant you...'You AT boys are always on the want...DAS,new a/c...we only have so much money and with eurofighter and the red arrows to pay for..'

I'm sure yesterday I heard John Reid touting a figure of £50,000 per aircraft for the Explosive-Suppressant Foam. This from yesterday's intranet.

Quote:

---

The cost of the work involved in fitting Explosion Suppressant Foam to the Hercules aircraft is roughly £600,000 per aircraft. This includes all the work associated with the programme

---

I wish he'd do some straight talking for a change! Keep up the good work Chappie! :ok:

Those of you with a sharp wit might like to append a caption to the good Doctor's image on the caption comp thread

cost of foam
 

Conservative defence spokesman Liam Fox said the cost of installing the foam was only 50,000 pounds per aircraft, on top of a one-off 275,000 pound payment for setting up the installation project.
The above was taken from an article on the Reuters web site dated 2 May

Once again a comedy written 20 years ago has an apt quote fo Mr Reid

"Politicians must be allowed to panic. They need activity. It is their substitute for achievement."

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Former Flake (love the 'yes minister' quote - spot on!)

However, I sincerely hope you are wrong about Albert in Afghanistan:eek: .

Maybe we should further expand the corporate manslaughter terms to include VC10, Trishaw and SH? I cannot believe that Basrah is totally benign - based on the fact that 'everyman and his camel' in the region have AK 47s and RPGs (not strictly true, I know but you get the gist?).

Ex-VC10 ppruners, would you want protection if it were available for your fuel tanks?

actual cost
 

i'm sure that when we first looked into this nige got quotes from lockheed direct and the figures were the £275,000 initially then £50,000 for each ac. i can try and check with my friend at marshalls. talking of nige, where is he? i hope AOC 2 Gp aren't thinking of holding him hostage maybe for the price of an ac receiving foam protection!

i have got so p****d off with reid i am doing a letter in the same format we did for blair on meeting with the families on the military families website. you can download the letter and send it off or you can go ahead and sign the petition i'm organising alongside the letter. i will be calling for him to permit foam for all aircraft now. please can you and the world sign it. it's not set up yet but by tomorrow it should be. fingers crossed. the same for the blog campaign web page. i will hopefully get that out around the media. the express are after a follow up so there is still interest there. hope you are all okay with the idea. i know that it's on the military families against war page and there will be many who do not disagree with the war but as far as i'm concerned this call for support is not about the war. it's for protection for all troops on alberts. i hope no one disagrees with this notion.i'll keep you posted.

as for gray, i've got my contacts sorting that out and hopefully making sure that he is mindful of his constituents in the future. bearing in mind this man turned up at six of the funerals without invitation. one would ask who was he there for?

Long day. AOC 2 kindly gave me 2 hours or so of his time. Fair to say we had a meeting of minds. I did not hold back on anything. Tonight I am content that I have passed on the concerns expressed by so many people via pprune. I feel he deserves some time to sort things out. We shared a lot of common ground. We disagree on the management of risk but that is a burden for him to bear and for me to criticise. We talked about the failure to fit foam and we came to an understanding. He is a good man and I respect him.

NG

What I cannot understand with all this is the notion that we didn't have the U.S experience of Vietnam to help us prepare our transport fleets. Surely the use of Nitrogen bottles to inert the Tornado fin tank was something which came from ground AAA fire research? Similarily pictures of Harriers/Sea Harriers returning from sorties over the Falklands with bullet holes in them should have atleast have promoted an understanding of the risks to fast jets let alone transport aircraft to groundfire.

NigeGilb
 

Nigel,

Can you make some space in your PM box please.

Best wishes


JB

JB Spac e now avail.

NG

For the MOD managers out there, lets take that a bit further

Cost of Ac (anywhere between £1 - £10m) lets say, £4m.
Cost of trg the flight crew (5) lets say approx £2m each = £10m
Cost of trg the rest of the crew (5) lets say approx £7m
Savings due pension vice salary approx £100k
Saving on NOT fitting foam (worst case) = £ 50k + £350k = £400k

So for the taxypayers sake,

We saved £0.5m but lost £21m

and now

we will have to spend another £21m to replace the crew and aircraft (if possible), while still losing all the crew's invaluable experience.

Ask yourself if this is good accounting or management? I fear the answer would be negative!

The old adage of "For a hay'p'th of tar the ship was lost" rings too true in our ears.

Little birdie tells me that Des will be receiving a letter of congratulations to his new job.

James Gray MP
 

I have just sent this email to James Gray, with copies to David Cameron and Liam Fox

Dear James Gray
If your words, published in a Wiltshire newspaper about one of your constituents, Nigel Gilbert, are a correct quote, then you, Sir, should be ashamed of yourself. The paper quotes you as saying "He seems to be a self-publicist. He keeps going on about the same story. I think he should just let it lie."
http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/sea...mans_claim.php
In writing this, I am assuming that the words are correct.

This man that you criticise has been an operational pilot on the front line of dangerous military operations for his - our - country. He knows what he’s talking about. As you well know, he is now engaged in a courageous campaign to make the MoD provide some long overdue safety measures for aircraft that are at great risk in operational areas.

I know, from close contact with Nigel Gilbert, that he is anything but a ‘self-publicist’. In fact, I believe that it is largely because of the media appearances of Nigel Gilbert and Sarah Chapman that the then Secretary of State for Defence felt obliged to admit, on the ‘Today’ programme on Radio 4 on 3 May, that “with hindsight....... of course it is possible to say that this tragedy might have been averted if we had done that” (installed explosive suppressant foam). You will be aware that the MoD had not admitted this previously.

When you suggest that “He keeps going on about the same story. I think he should just let it lie", you may wish to consider whether it is because people like you and the crassly uncaring MoD have been prepared to ‘let things like this lie’ that 10 courageous soldiers of The Queen died unnecessarily on 5 January 2005.

I suggest that you should immediately apologise publicly to Nigel Gilbert, and reapply yourself, as his Member of Parliament, to helping him right this disgraceful wrong.



standing by for incoming
airsound

I don't want to detract from the excellent work of this thread, but......

It would appear that the UK has a long history of not providing it's airman with the best equipment to enhance their survival. I seem to remember reading that in WW1 the RFC/RAF did not provide its pilots with parachutes (the crews of observation balloons had them!) as they thought the pilots would 'bail out' at the first sign of trouble. As a result if the aircraft caught fire at height the pilot had to either to, try and ride it down, burn to death, or jump without a parachute to a certain fate!!

Airsound, I am honoured that I have friends like you. I would like to add that Mike Hancock, Lib Dem Portsmouth, has asked 20 or so searching questions of our Defence Ministers. He has grilled them and harried them. He has probed a range of serious issues. He isn't even our local MP, but I truly believe he cares. I think the voters in North Wiltshire should take a careful look at how Mr Gray (Con), has behaved before they go to the polls next time.

Biggus lessons from History from a US perspective:

"Denying the lessons-learned from Vietnam is equivalent to ignoring the American Civil War's lessons on charging across open stretches of level ground towards entrenched troops armed with Maxim guns (Petersburg 1864). Might have made a difference in front of Serre and Beaumont Hamel in 1916.

If the RAF believes that the Hercules is adequately protected against the threats that it might face, they should be especially vigilant in ensuring they don't task the aircraft against threats the frames can't defeat. Can't defeat SA-10, don't fly against SA-10. Don't need DAS or foam to fly into Nellis, Bruggen and Akronelli, don't fly anywhere other than locations similar in threat level to Nellis, Bruggen and Akronelli."....
Simple threats don't attract the attention (money) that hi-tech ones do. But the USAF baseline for their Herks is with foam in the tanks, and all the rest of the kit is added on top of/after that. I never viewed foam as something that would be tough to get installed since it was an aftermarket addition to the first Herks, and added as a standard fit to later marks - including early C-130E's."

aw shucks, nige.

airsound

that's enough of that
ed

Duty of Care (Thanks to JB Chinook Thread)
 

"You have prompted me to put something on the Chinook thread, which in case you have not read it is as follows:

This thread has been quiet for a few days, and I guess many people like myself have been following the Hercules saga and the outstanding efforts by Nigel and chappie to both improve safety for the future and see justice done. Indeed it was in comparing what is happening on the Hercules and our continuing fight on the Chinook that it struck me that there may be another way to make MOD and indeed the RAF (in this case) management chain face up to its responsibilities.

Nobody can pretend that military operations will ever be safe, or indeed that there will not be accidents, but with the Crown no longer able to take advantage of Crown exemption it seems to me that the words “fitness for purpose” and “duty of care” are just as applicable to military operations and training (in peace and war) as they are to any other part of society.

If we take “fitness for purpose” it seems to me this must include giving the serviceman the most effective equipment to do the job – whether this is an assault rifle that works, a radio that works, an airworthy Chinook, or a Hercules with proper defensive aids and fuel tank inerting. How do you judge “effective” – well the obvious way is to compare what we have with the equipment standards of our allies and indeed enemies – sadly we too often fail on both counts.

If we send a serviceman or woman to fight with equipment that has obvious deficiencies and we then use tactics or make them “fight” in a way which makes those deficiencies more dangerous eg by authorising or insisting on low-level daylight operations where the threat regime highlights the deficiencies, then it seems to me that the commanders who took this decision may have now failed in their “duty of care”. The level at which this failure may have occurred could be quite low eg the officer of SNCO who allows military policemen to go on patrol with less than the required levels of ammunition or a radio that works. It could also be quite high – for example I am sure that Reid was correct when he said that it was a RAF decision not to fit tank inerting systems to the Hercules (they obviously saw JPA as more important!). The final link in the duty of care consideration must be that at command level you do not accept a task for which you do not have the right equipment – that might make the politicians more supportive! Given that the responsibilities would also feed back to the procurement of equipment the DPA might find a need to improve in a few areas as well.

Nonsense – totally incompatible with military operations – possibly – it would certainly make life much more difficult. We will always have casualties in military operations and training, but the fact remains that as far as I am aware the law applies equally to the Armed Services as to other walks of life, and one could argue that because military operations are so inherently dangerous they should only be undertaken when the command chain has made certain that they have met the most exacting “fitness for purpose” and “duty of care” considerations – and that would not, for example, have included selecting a Chinook Mk2 with ZD 576’s airworthiness history for a passenger flight against the captain’s recommendation and request.

Like war crimes this general issue comes down to being not just a command issue but also to an individual’s responsibility as, for example, a few MT officers found out in somewhat more benign circumstances, when some MOD MT operations did not meet the laws of the UK. It will be interesting to see what happens when the first family goes to the police to complain that MOD, or an individual, has failed in its/his “duty of care” responsibility and asks for a criminal investigation – it could never happen? We shall see – the words “Corporate Manslaughter” have appeared several times on the Hercules thread.

I look forward to hearing other people’s views.


AOC 2 Group may have his own ideas on the management of risk - but they still have to pass the duty of care requirements - which often have to be tested in court."

Chappie/ NigeGilb Et Al,

I have backtracked through most of the recent postings on this sorry state of affairs....

Time and time again i see a common denominator.....

CASH !!!!

WE cant or WONT be able to afford the cost of modding every aircraft that flies into hostile areas....

Where has the duty of care gone ???
Where has the rationale of providing equipment that is fit for purpose gone ??

Early '80's all Op Banner a/c had to have SDS fitted if not they werent used !!

OK, we have lost an airframe in XV179, that is replaceable by 1 of a fleet of (xxx) what is not replaceable, is the dedicated crew that fly/operate them.....!!!

All of us old enough to remember the Falklands will recall that we lost 3 Chinooks, Bravo November being the sole survivor, and flew her rotors off providing support to all and sundry...
What if the worse case scenario was we lost all the crews to fly them...maybe then the powers that be would listen ???

Although this next statement may be off tangent a bit, it's just my view opinon...

Someone mentioned about "downing tools" , well, while flying at an airfield in RAFG in a glider, i was downwind to land. My landing area was blocked by a slow recovery of another glider. I extended my base leg and landed on the runway.. One of Brize's finest was due in shortly behind me and had to "go around" due to "black runway"....!!

SATCO wanted my blood, as a SAC i took my roasting on the chin and then pointed out the letter of the law, power gives way to gliders and that as the "a/c capt" i had a decision to make and made it!!! My glider, my approach , my landing !!! i got no option as i got no means to go around...
If he had a problem lets go see Staish !!!! He declined....!!!

My point being if more people stood up to the spineless wonder that are supposedly the peers n masters then things may change...Sadly there are those that prefer to safeguard their careers first and foremost without a care for those whose responsibility they are entrusted with...!!!

For the Government to threaten to withhold pension payments is like saying you have to pay to be killed in the defence of your country or those you are there to protect...!!! this stinks !!!! Also i guess it's how the Government fund repatriation/recovery of downed aircraft...!!! Just my view....

No intention to offend anyone here .....
Rgds
LL

LL, your point is well made. I was very impressed with AOC 2 yesterday, but I am not convinced that he is going to get enough hard cash to achieve what our partners are doing. It is an area in which I intend to fight the Govt hard. There is a realisation in the military that transport/helos must be given a higher priority now. I am not sure it will come about by increased funding more like reorganisation. Sadly the boys/girls on front line duties need protecting right now. The lack of experience will only worsen as more aircrew leave the service. I had not read pprune for a long time til recently. I have become a keen reader of JPA. I cannot believe the RAF is struggling to pay its people. The immediate future in terms of manning looks grim. Hey politicos, hope your listening.

Nige,

I know for a fact the guys n gals in AKT are having major probs with JPA....!!!

Simple answer No Pay No Work !!!!

I work to live !!!
Not live to work !!!

LL

i would like to say nige, despite my earlier wobble on tues i intend to stand by your side and fight alongside you to get the government to initiate foam fitting with immediate effect on all ac. yes, there are alot of areas that are short of money but what we are asking for is not unreasonable or undoable (if that is a word!) what is needed along with one of the spineless idiots that enjoy high office is to get their heads out of whoevers a*** they have got it up, grow some balls and start doing what they are paid to do. we are not living in dreamland asking for this technology fleet wide. there are gross misuse of funds in the government on a daily basis that the cash can be released from, so i do not and will not buy the notion that there is not the money.

i want to make it clear to those of you who may wonder what the hell is a nurse doing getting involved in this. bob o'connor that's what. those men died on election day in iraq and as a sister i struggled to find a sense of purpose in the loss i felt. i thought of peace in the new iraq. well, we can see how that turned out. this is not a replacement for my brother, nor is this a stage for me to use. this is about fighting for a legacy to be left from the downing of XV179 and ensuring that no one, and i mean no one has to go through what i've had to endure again as a result of the measures that weren't taken. i have heard that there is concern that i am using my brother as political bait and i'm being disrespectful to his memory. how that conclusion has been reached i do not know. if this view is the opinion of those of you who have watched and supported this please let me know. needless to say i am distraught at this notion but i am keen to recieve feedback as it is essential that this does not happen. i have had to talk of bob to rationalise why i am here in this fight. i await your views.

Foam fight
 

Chappie,
You do not need to justify yourself to anybody - we know where you are coming from and are with you.... 100%.

I did not know Bob well but I am certain he would have been very proud of your obvious courage and true grit. Hold on to that thought.

You draw our attention to the big picture, once again. Yes, this protective foam is absolute peanuts in the great scheme of things, so why is it not fitted, especially after the BOI? Only the minister knows that.

The only reason why there is not enough money in the Herc 'pot' is because because the right people 'up high' have not stamped their feet and jumped up and down until MOD finds some spare cash - it is there but thiose same people cannot be bothered to rock the boat/shake the tree to find it.

Sadly, it is only the threat of ministerial criminal proceedings or loss of career that grabs peoples' attention (was Reid's reshuffle as a result of that sort of pressure?).

I cannot believe it is so hard to find the cash, even in the RAFs budget.
Given the choice between JPA, UASs or the Red Arrows and better protection for all our OPERATIONAL ac - I know what would get my vote!

Keep going lass, you are doing fine!

Airsound,

Good letter - but it was a typo that you put 5th Jan wasn't it? As you know, the tragedy occured on 30 Jan 2005. Don't want your position to be discredited!

An easy way for anyone else to get through to their MP - try this: http://www.writetothem.com/

Airsound,

A hard-hitting epistle - well done! I have sent a similar letter too , though nowhere near as erudite, of course.

I would like to think that most Lyneham families have done the same.

If not please do so as soon as you can - try this address

[email protected].

Mr Gray will have to do a lot of back-peddaling to recover his lost votes and his credibility.

Flipster