Jet v piston?
 

Over on another thread, Baffy Boy said:

>In the Time Machine, Dec 7 1941, Pearl Harbor, 0730 Local. Lead of a flight of F4Ds from the 'Gunfighters', just airborne, all fitted with 3 20mm gunpods, 4 sparrows and 4 sidewinders.<

This very subject cropped up in a recent crewroom conversation. Vigilant drivers aren't exactly well versed in the finer points of ACM, so none of us knew what the answer was -- but how would a modern fighter pilot take on a piston classic if it became necessary? Would be a case of one high-speed pass and a missile release? And did any such encounter ever take place for real?

Without provoking another "Beadwindow" cry... suffice to say that the F3 boys regularly practice kicking the c@!p out of tupperware and tin cans.... As have the typhoon boys I believe?

Though in the typhoon's case it would be a shame to waste a multi-million quid missile vs a piece of plastic with an engine bolted on!

Your best guess there is probably not far off, given the turning performance of a classic probably leaves the tonka for dust, although I wouldn't want to comment on the typhoon.


IIRC didn't a sea fury get a guns kill on a mig or two? Could have been Korea, can't remember the details but sure it was the only such kill post WWII of a piston vs a jet.

Suffice to say Baffy's fantasy flight may well have made quite a big impression....

From http://www.britains-smallwars.com/carriers/Ocean.html

9 August 1952 (4-ship of Sea Fury FB11 versus 8-ship of Mig 15s)

To Lieutenant Peter 'Hoagy' Carmichael, went the very rare distinction, of being the pilot of one of a few piston-engined aircraft, to shoot down a jet-engined aircraft.

Another from a spotters site:

The Sea Fury performed air strikes with any ordnance it could carry, including sea mines. It operated from the Weapons delivery was extremely accurate for the days of unguided weapons, and one Sea Fury even shot down a MiG-15. On 9 August 1952, a flight of four FB.11s from the HMS OCEAN was on a "train busting" mission when they were jumped by eight MiG-15s. The MiG pilots foolishly decided to get into a "turning contest" with the agile Sea Furies, and a Sea Fury piloted by Lieutenant Peter "Hoagy" Carmichael managed to get on the tail of a MiG and smash it up with his four 20 millimeter cannon.

That's multi role for you. Tear in my eye. Roll on the display season.

Would the 'SeaJet' have been able to do so, I wonder?

Probably a couple of turns before it would have had to run away to mother out of fuel....

That's if it had even been able to get as far as the Sea Fury flight with any sort of weapon load in the first place, of course!

Setting WEBF stopwatch. 1114Z...hack!

IIRC a US Navy A-1 Skyraider knocked off a Mig 17 during the Vietnam war as well:confused:

During the 'Confrontation' the RAF realised that Indonesia still operated P-51s, and the Air Fighting Development Squadron therefore ran trials pitching Lightnings (various) against a Spitfire PR.Mk 19, and then developed tactics to deal with such a threat.

>Without provoking another "Beadwindow" cry... suffice to say that the F3 boys regularly practice kicking the c@!p out of tupperware and tin cans.... As have the typhoon boys I believe?<

Sorry, I should have made it clear that I wasn't asking about present-day tactics to cope with terrorist-type situations. The Sea Fury-vs-Mig situation was more like it.

Jackonicko -- thanks for the reminder that I'd read somewhere about Lightning+Firestreak trials against Spitfire PR19s but couldn't recall what the outcome was.

Would the multimillion pound missile even recognise a piston engined aircraft as a vaible target?



...theoretically and rhetorically speaking of course.

a guns only fight would be interesting :cool:

If you're thinking of current missiles then they obviously each has pros and cons. For radar guided stuff i.e Skyflash/AMRAAM then you've got to find the target on the host radar first. Defeat that, and you win by keeping the rocket on the rails. If you happen to be sufficiently hotter than the background outside of min range then you could expect to soak up a 9L or ASRAAM

There's always the aptly named "disruptive overflight" technique but I'd bet a turbo prop could turn inside a FJ if they survived the merge. How's about this?:

http://www.embraer.com/english/conte...per_tucano.asp

Surely someone with a cray super computer and microsoft flight sim can tell us?

Ray