A T
Sorry, if it was bait I'll bite but your statement of "the difference between a straight and a bi-curious man is 6 pints" is either wishful thinking or justification on your part. Does this mean that you think it's worth trying it on in the later stages of happy hour, after all, by your definition, the bar is full of bi-curious men. Go on, you might get lucky. Your comment gives an insight into your view of human sexuality. My heterosexual sexuality is a fundamental unshakeable part of me. It would appear that the roots of your homosexuality can be traced back to a few cans of Dry Blackthorn. |
Flap62,
You really, really REALLY, are a bit of a joke..................... |
*******
Am I to assume that you are one of the "apparently" (A T's word!) people who agrees that everyone is bi-curious? I for one would find this suggestion offensive if it were not so laughable. I'm sure that our gay brothers would be offended if I suggested " ah it's all right, get a few pints down you and you'll fancy birds again" |
Hmmmm, I might take my chances in Edinburgh with AT in that Whisky treasure trove there though !! ;)
I would take the comment regarding 6 pints in the spirit (?) in which was intended, since most of my oppos (myself too in my younger days) regard downing/quaffing and eventually regurgitating copious amounts of beer as a badge of manhood and better than, or even a prelude to, foreplay :E I don't think I have ever been "bi-curious" in my life, but I have been pissed enough to regret my choice of female companion the next morning on quite a few occasions ! Luckily I never had to check under the sheets just in case though :} |
My only comment re-iterates some that have been made before in that:
One day, our Lords and Masters said the homosexuality was totally taboo and that was it. Next day, all is sweetness and light and it doesn't matter what your inclination is. You cannot change an "ethos" overnight. BTW Ethos is a word used by senior officers when they cannot rely on the troops being motivated anymore. |
One day, our Lords and Masters said that climbing out of a trench into the thick of a machine gun barrage armed only with a rifle was a requirement and that if you thought otherwise, your officers were allowed to shoot you.
[:8] ...and it was eight pints, not six [/:8] |
Glad to see this back. It would have been sad had it been confined to the politically-correct lead-lined vault!
ORAC I did a bit of digging on your references. The result concerning the second, NARTH, is most interesting. They are a fundamentalist Christian group supporting "Reparative therapy" and believe that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and can be cured Tablet_Eraser Doesn't explain why homosexuality existed BEFORE exposure to DDT. DDT is a modern chemical, so how does this explain homosexuality prior to human exposure to such chemicals? Sexuality and masculinity are very distinct. I am not a fish. I am a man. This article has nothing to do with sexuality. You've also made the disingenuous argument of linking human and animal sexuality And since Plato, Edward II, James I of England, Oscar Wilde and Alan Turing - among other luminaries - were homosexuals BEFORE any of your chemical arguments applied, I do not see how you can prove your case at all. Proud2Serve I'd be interested for some guidance as to how far the Armed Forces Code of Social Conduct governs current service and reserve personnel and their public pronouncements when out of uniform, and online. Holding "traditional" views for a long time does not necessarily make them right On HM Government's estimate you are talking about 7% of the working population. Some might even put it as high as 10%. This is not tiny - it is anything up to 20 000 currently serving personnel in the regular forces. Taking this, one can reasonably assume that the Military does not particularly attract gays - for the same reasons that some other professions (cabin crew, for example) seem to attract a significant proportion of gay men. Even if we DID, that works out as something like 3-4000 gay personnel - I have no idea where your 20,000 came from. Given the relative unattractiveness of our job, the reality is probably in the mid-hundreds, if that, bearing in mind we have only just begun to accept openly gay personnel. I would even go out on a limb here and guess that we have less than 200 openly gay personnel currently serving. I challenge you to refute that, with evidence. "Neither is it 'equivalent' to a marriage, for the same reason - marriage exists to provide a stable and balanced environment in which to raise children." ... which is why it is working so well in contemporary society. Are you sure marriage isn't a construct of the church to aid social control and try to prevent STI spreading through sexual promiscuity? That's a whole other discussion. "A same-sex relationship is not a balanced environment" - Why isn't it? What evidence do you base this on? Re-Heat Re-Heat - The problem with this view is that to be a leader - to care about your staff/troops/men/women whom work for you - you have to care what people do in their own time in order to effectively motivate them to work for you If you are not prepared to ask the question - how is your boyfriend - you have come no further than when it was all in the closet. 16B |
16B
this, one can reasonably assume that the Military does not particularly attract gays we have less than 200 openly gay personnel currently serving They [kids] need the influence of both sexes in this to develop a balanced view of the world around them "Almost one in four children in England and Wales now lives in a one-parent family, the latest data from the 2001 Census has revealed." BBC "According to the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, 33% of children adoption from Foster Care is by a single parent " "Researchers found that comparisons of single-parent homes to two-parent homes showed that children in single-parent families experienced fewer problems. " "In the same study, research found that single-parent families were more likely than two-parent families to evaluate the adoption's impact as being very positive" Adoption.com You are obviously not a member of the armed forces if you think we run some kind of cuddly-fluffy management style - we don't, and never have. You do as you're told, simple as that I am very glad that I work for people who do actually give a shi* about who I am as a person, rather than just a trained monkey! |
16B
Okay, I think I can make peace with you - your arguments for the causes of sexuality are clearly deeply-rooted, and you can at least put forward arguments in a reasoned and diplomatic way. Flap62, take note. However: ..then why cite examples of alleged homosexual behaviour in animals to support your position? Re-heat - couldn't agree more. That's what all of this should boil down to. Respect for the individual. The RAF chap interviewed by Attitude magazine had this to say: It's accepted now that you can't run the military effectively without giving attention to morale and welfare, and respecting people's sexuality is a big part of that. Management doesn't come into this - it is leadership, pure and simple. I think this thread has run its course - we're never going to agree, and if it carries on it's going to become more and more tedious. I suggest we have it locked and keep it on the boards for posterity. |
t_e
"""I think this thread has run its course - we're never going to agree, and if it carries on it's going to become more and more tedious. I suggest we have it locked and keep it on the boards for posterity"""" Nice technique to have the last word ?? ;) :E My last point - Indulgence in "Happy Families" in the service, by definition heterosexual in the main, had/has a far greater impact on individual morale and collective attitude than the private homosexual domain - argumentative or what ? I think the objectors on this thread are quite right that they don't need to be slapped in the face with someone's sexuality as a qualification, or even a mitigating circumstance, in how they operate professionally ( God, it was difficult to avoid saying "performance on the job" there !) |
16B
You may notice that the gay side of the argument has never preached against the validity of the the other sexual orientation, or their relationships. Personally, I'm very happy that at least one straight couple got together and I'm lucky to have valued relationships with the straight couples in my extended family and circle of friends. Do I give a tuppenny toot whether birds, bees or educated fleas do it? No I don't. If Aircraftsman / woman Bloggs were obviously under-performing, might I ask if everything was OK at home? I may well do. I can see no reason why such an interview need go beyond a discussion of human relationships whatever the gender / sexuality of the participants. The chances are the problem will be debt / money / homesickness (serviceperson's or partner's) / health / a problem with a parent or other family member. Those problems are universal and no different whether the person is gay or straight. I once returned from detached duty to find a (married) lad had 'come out' in my absence. The casework was well down the line. He had already been told to bring a note from his wife! (I kid you not). I was then ordered by DLS(RAF) to interview the lad to get "more explicit details of his sexual activities"! I asked DLS what the **** for? Were we to fire him only if he had gone beyond 1st, 2nd 3rd or 4th base ?!? Needless to say, I sat the lad down, told him the purpose of the interview and ordered him to tell me to **** off and mind my own business: An order he was most relieved and happy to comply with. I aksed the lad if he wanted me to drag my heels over this as he could remain on the payroll for months. He replied that he wanted out ASAP as he already had a far better-paid job lined up with BWOS. DLS somehow managed to fire him without any of the 'required' graphic details. Overall, I am of an older vintage than some of the other gay posters on this thread. Certainly as far as any professional or social interaction were concerned, I dare say the differences between me and youngsters like Tablet will be far greater than the differences between me and thee, 16B. You never know, since on meeting me you would never know I was gay in a month of Sundays, we might have been good friends in the past. I couldn't give a toss whether anyone approves or disapproves of gay people. All I ask is that you don't fixate on that one (professionally irrelevant) part of our make-up. Look beyond it and you might find some good friends and sound people. |
AT.....
Your point is the exact right answer but not in the way you phrased it....if I never guess...suspect....surmise...or know that you are gay....then absolutely spot on....you are free to do your job and serve your country with the straightest of the straight. The difference is the ones that want to rub it in our faces....poor choice of words....but you understand my meaning. Get on about your life and work....discretely....and everyone is happy....exactly as for a "straight" person. There are some aspects of a person's life I just do not care to know all about thank you. That goes for both straight and gay. |
SASless,
you say, if I never know that you are gay....then absolutely spot on |
Good Lord! An insightful, intelligent, pithy contribution from Flap62. :ok: We are making progress.
I think I will wait for SASless' answer to that before responding to his question to me. |
A T
All of my contributions are intelligent and pithy. It's just that you don't realise as your brain has turned to mush on a diet of Will & Grace and Sex in the City. (Tongue firmly in cheek!) |
This is too much: Nascent wit as well?
I've already coughed to not being in the first flush of youth. Given previously expressed views, is this a back-door attempt to see if you can finish the old poofter's ticker off? ;) That said, I complement you on your knowledge of contemporary popular 'gay' culture! I can't abide either programme myself! :E |
Flaps62...
If you read what I said....you will have your answer.....same thing as when a guy comes up with porno pics of him and his newest female conquest....I would think rather less of him for telling me all about it.....as in the same feeling I get from Born Agains who just have to remind others they were Back Sliders from their prior beliefs. Be yourself, be discrete, and be professional...that is all I ask of anyone. Start your preaching...swishing....or barracks talk in a polite or professional conversation or set of circumstances and I think far less of you personally. Bad manners are just bad manners. |
After 9 pages of 'Gay this' and 'Hetero that' it's time I said my small piece and it's with regards to 'natural'.
Adam and Eve NOT Adam and Steve. I thank you and goodnight. |
I think we agree, SASless. At least in part.
As I said earlier, being of an older vintage than the other chaps, aspects of the gay pride thing which they may see as harmless fun, I see as bad manners. Whereas, I might see somebody baring their backside in a beer-soaked rugby club as harmless fun, I regard someone parading bare-@rsed around a city centre where old ladies may be doing their shopping as extremely bad manners. Likewise, I found graphic references to the mechanics of some forms of boudoir gymnastics made here as being in very bad taste, whereas I found other comments like "They like it up 'em Capt Mainwaring" quite witty. Actually, I've never been one to be over sensitive or to parade anything. Which is why I found it all the more perplexing that the Service felt the need to spend thousands every year employing sad old closet-queens to 'root-out' gay men and women. The incident related in my last main post finished me and I was disgusted with myself for having taken part in the dismissal of someone else. I therefore decided to join the fight against the ban at the next available opportunity. Saying 'yes' at a PV interview 3 months later caused the sky to fall in. The rest is history. Sadly not content with my head, a senior homosexual P&SS rat wanted my friends as well. The only way to stop the queerhunt was to come out to my CO. Even after that, one very senior homosexual was still not content and, according to my CO, wanted further investigations to find more. Stopping it all was then very easy. I merely offered to co-operate but made it plain that naming of names would start at the very top and work downwards. Official interest in finding junior gay officers then rapidly evaporated. My point? Good-natured banter is one thing. I think after the recent events in Rwanda, Bosnia and even in Louisiana and the earlier events related by Beags, we should all be able to see how thin the veneer of civilisation in the human animal actually is and how quickly and easily it can disintegrate. It took only six weeks of radio broadcasts denigrating one group of people as cockroaches to kick off the genocide in Rwanda. It is extremely easy to denigrate an invisible minority, and especially sad when, to maintain their own invisibility, members of that minority persecute each other. That, SASless is why it is important that people can be 'out', honest and open. Otherwise, the road from hate-filled posts on a message board, to queerhunts and sackings, through beatings, on past imprisonment and right on down the road to hanging teenage laddies can be a very short road indeed. |
As long as people fly, fight and follow orders does it matter who or what they are? I think not. A lot of the arguments on this thread seem to belong to the wrong generation by about three or four levels.
One of the great joys about living in the UK is that you can be of any political belief, race, gender, or sexual orientation and it shouldn't matter a damn. Those of us in the armed forces, in the extreme, are there to protect these freedoms. Those of you who appear to believe that gays shouldn't be in the armed forces, or that the change has destroyed ethos look at certain non-aillied nations with more conservative views and see if you'd prefer to live your lifes like them. |
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