Anyone who takes that amount of snuff probably deserves promotion to flag rank..........

He's very focussed

Eton and Cambridge still helps in this world, and CS is living testament to that.

Back to the Lynx ditching. Has anyone got any update on who was the 3rd bod in the back?

Staff/Trapper/Flt Cdr/Passenger on a jolly/Mid/YO/??????? Not interested in an 'intelligent guess' - we can all do that - just fact or rumour please.

believe it was the flight winchman. Its normal procedure for Lynx flights to take the flight winchman with them as he also acts as the gunner (unpaid, unwilling and little training).
As for the ADAWS problem. It is well documented that T42's have massive nav errors and it is not unusual for outhouse to bugger off on a course of its own never to be seen again. Happened to me many times and eventually I made local policy to remain within 50 miles of the ship. It also meant that the whole thing had to be updated every 20 minutes whiich is inefficiency gone bonkers...
No one seems to be placing any emphasis on the bag passing them duff info....was the bag to blame?
Maybe the BOI can make sense of this but at the end of the day if the outcome of this is a decent nav kit for the T42 then some good will have come of this.....although I doubt the funds will be found.

Good point made by Orca.... I dismay at the amount of times I have recovered (just) and attempted to bollock the Navs/OOW only to be greeted by a blank look.....

Totalwar, do you KNOW it was the Flt winchman or is that a guess?

It seems a little bit unlikely that the winchman/crewman/cabin gunner (does the M3 really fill this warfare role today?) would be carried on a long-range (encounterex?) sortie. Isn't his weight of fuel more important in the Mk8?

Nav accuracy in the T42 is a red herring. The ship has a perfectly decent and accurate GPS system. The fault, if any, may be in the procedures to ensure the nav plot and tactical plots remain locked together. That is a training/competence issue.

ADAWS and the type 42 have had this problem for years and it won't be resolved until (hopefully will be resolved with) the introduction of the T45. The GPS is not locked into the tactical plot, for some bizarre reason. Working before with a T42 we gave positioning in Lat/Long that was crossed into grid for the plot before being converted back to Lat/Long for the targeting computer, with ERRORS. There is training/competence issues here with cross referencing plots but when there are lives at risk and the problem is known how can this be a red herring. Nobody knows if the bag held the ship on radar or was relying upon position reports passed from the ship. T42's do not physically jump miles! Shame really, t'would be a huge saving in fuel bills!

What the Bag was doing? Thats a BOI thing I'm afraid, none of us have enough info to speculate on services provided and I'm sure we all agree that the aircraft captain would have kept a close eye on the plot as well.

The Lynx MK 8 can carry three people and full fuel even in the Gulf. This idea that it has the legs of a wasp is c&*p. The only issue that could cause a problem is single engine recovery to the deck, but hey that affects all helos in the area.

Very true.... the Lynx Mk8 does not have a problem operating in this area and if it did then it wouldn't be sent there.

It is normal procedure to fly with the winchman. Routine, normal, happens everyday....

I concur with Fagin's Goat. Don't blame the kit for operator error (if that is what it was). Nav errors of a few hundred's of yards do not cause this sort of incident. Reminds me of a similar incident several years ago when a Lynx landed in Sicily (i think) ran out of fuel and had to call for a fuel tanker. He got really slated at the time, but IMHO he should have been given a pat on the back for having the Cohones to not press-on. Red faces, but got the aircraft back safely.

Nobodys 'blaming' anyone, be it ship's crew, aircrew or equipment. All this is the rumour (!) mill with a bit of a discussion into a well known problem with certain ships ops software/routines and also the old age problem with outhouse procedures and emcon. This particular series of events will be old news to anyone who has flown the Lynx and I personally am amazed that there are these events surrounding yet another accident/incident. It's not exactly breaking news that the plot slippage leads to prob's getting the Lynx back on the deck. These events are often a catalyst to spark off discussion into old problems that never seem to go away.

The BOI will, hopefully, be able to corellate the facts and produce a professional finding based upon hard facts. If anyone has a problem with that then stop reading the Professional Pilots RUMOUR network.

Thankfully no-one was hurt in this accident, except perhaps a bit of professional pride, which allows this supposition to take place :-)

As to the witch hunt, who knows?

Trouble is I can't help but agree with Paul McK....

I totally agree with the old "outhouse" chestnut. Iv'e never quite understood why we create an imaginary waypoint in the position of the ship at the start of the sortie when what we actually need to know is the position of the ship at the end of the sortie...bizarre....

Fagin - It was the winchman, have seen the signal

Had a beer with the lads involved last night in Dubai. Very interesting to hear their story. Equally interesting to read some of the comments here. Not something I am sure any of us would like to experience. Like always, don't speculate and wait for the facts before judging.........

"Don't Speculate".... get a grip man, it'a a RUMOUR network.

Main thing is everyone is all right, so lets have some RUMOURS.

Exactly....whats the point of this site if we can't speculate....thats what its here for....

However, you should take care over your comments as it could incriminate people or upset families of those involved. Thankfully in this case there were no injuries except to the pride of the bagman who sent a perfectly innocent lynx guy down the wrong path.

So you are happy to incriminate the bagman are you :mad: without backing up your statement - do you really know what happened?

Whenever I fly from the ship I bloody well know where mother is all the time, whether as a contact on radar or a no duff position from outhouse. I am not relying on anyone else - a second set of info to back up what I already know is nice for that warm and fuzzy but I don't rely on it. As aircraft captain I am responsible for getting back to the ship and no-one else. And yes, I have done emcon recoveries with no comms or radar at night from a long way out which wouldnt have worked without basic navigation skills, some semblance of SA and a ship doing what it said it would.

I'm sorry, harsh as it sounds, if you run out of go juice you have to seriously ask what was going on in the cab at the time, whatever the contributory factors. IMHO in peacetime there is no excuse for losing an aircraft due to running out of fuel.

Why dont we just wait for the BOI to release its findings. Then we can try to learn from any mistakes that were made to prevent any reoccurrence.

Oggin

total...

"However, you should take care over your comments as it could incriminate people or upset families of those involved. Thankfully in this case there were no injuries except to the pride of the bagman who sent a perfectly innocent lynx guy down the wrong path."


so who is being incriminating now towards the bagmen....do you know for certain that it was the bags fault and that the lynx guy was perfectly innocent?

edited because oggin got in there first!!! Great minds eh!!

That's 'total' for you - mouth - foot - enter = bollox. He and his alter ego Hyd3Failure are just 2 of a kind!

Totally concur with oggin....He has hit the nail on the head...however there are a couple of flaws in his ramblings...First one is

As previously stated this was a T42 and therefore the ship thought it was with outhouse but actually was some distance away.



I had a chat with the guys who are safely back at Yeovilton (thankfully)... they seem confident in the fact that they did everything as they had been taught to do.

I've seen the gucci nav kit on the bridge of the CVS - has this been fitted to the T42?

I cant believe in this day and age, even reading the posts on this thread, that a ship can lose itself such that it gives incorrect brg/ranges to aircraft fom ref points. Its not really rocket science is it?

Totalwar,

Rash thing to say, rumour is one thing, out and out accusation is another.

Simple rule in this job is 'look after number one'. I'm sure the Lynx crew had no reason to doubt the positions being passed but in my experience that warm comfy feeling only comes from knowing exactly where mum is myself. If that means not ID'ing that last contact then so what! Theres always another day. Coming back to the deck with both fuel low lights blazing is never an ideal captaincy scenario especially when you've only got one place to go and for most of the sortie they ain't talking to you!

The Bag was providing some sort of service, exactly what we don't know but to slander the boys based on speculation is crazy! Rumour is fine but don't go slingin s%^t without damn good evidence.

Alright Oggin, still goin' :ok:

Paul McK
 

Nice post, particularly as you have extensive experience of both platforms being talked about. Didnt I see your name in a glossy company publication recently, in an article by a new joiner ?

and yep, still goin' !

:ok:

As I said before I was an OOW on a T42 (HMS Exeter) and was also the FC1 from Sep 98 - Mar 02. We had a Lynx 3 for about 2/3 of that time, with a very experienced Observer and an RAN Pilot (QHI qualified). We were also fortunate enough to have a very competent AC and a good CHOPS(R).

I cannot recall one incident where we had a problem with outhose wandering off on its own and I can only recall a couple of instances where mum was more then 10 miles from outhouse (which is not a problem as long as somebody tells the aircraft).

So what I am saying is that in my opinion this is either down to an operator error at some point, either on the ship, the bag, or amongst the Lynx crew.

Nothing wrong with making a mistake, we all make them. The trick is to learn from it and not make the mistake again. My worry has been for some time now that training and currency are no longer adequate in both the FAA and the fleet in general - which might explain what I believe to be a marked increase in flying accidents in the FAA over the last 5 years.

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Why don't we try to get our heads out of the cockpit and off bridge and ask why the CTG were exercising in total emcon silence? Are we still expecting the fight a cold war in the GIUK gap?

I blame the adults - again!

Timzsta - Good points. we have (for years) lived off the fat of people's previous experience gained through training and then practice and exposure to the job. Perhaps now the cuts and reductions sufered by those at the sharp end might be coming home to roost.

Flight Safety talk about "breaking the chain". I've no doubt the BOI will identify such a chain of events and point out where mistakes were made. Doesn't help those guys and gals trying to cope at the moment.

That "warm fuzzy feeling" that anyone who has operated over the water away from Mum likes to feel can only be engendered by experience. And top kit.

My best wishes go to the crew of Navy 417 and I am glad that they are O.K. I was a pax in the same helo with same crew previously.

There has been a lot of speculation, but there are other elements which have still to be factored in, which I am sure will come to light at the BOI.

I believe that the crew did an excellent job under the circumstances with no injuries and hardly getting wet.

As for the use of Emcon policy, no matter what the circs are surrounding its use at the time, surely it is professional to practice its use during an exercise in any event.

I have twice lost the ship on dark, Emcon silent nights when mum (surprise surprise) wasn't where she said she was, and I have to agree, it is a fairly outdated procedure in todays modern warfare scenarios.
It certainly focusses the mind and makes you allow that much extra fuel for the wife and kids when planning your recovery. But thats the point, its been happening for as long as I can remember so you factor it into your captaincy decision making.

I would have to disagree with you submariner - the lynx crew did not do an excellent job; they, and probably all the other players in this incident, cocked up to some extent, resulting in the loss of their aircraft.

German Lynx
 

Unfortunatly the German Lynx was lost, it sank when the boat arrived and they tried to pick it up. But before it was floating for about an hour.
And for the letters on board, the Dutch Lynx, which winched them up, had to throw their load overboard to be able to make the rescue.

But at least the water was warm.

Greets, your Jerry

Jerry,

Obwohl Ich weiss dass in Deutschland es viele Lynx gibt, Ich kann kaum nicht glauben dass unter die namen ASUW du wirfst auch das hubschrauber hinein!!!!

Geiz ist Geil!!!

As to the Nottingham Lynx, IMHO the buck stops with the aircraft captain who is ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE for the correct carrying out of the mission as tasked and the safety of the aircraft and aircrew. The nav system cockups are well known and, as such, I personally would have had a far tighter grip on mother. The experience/currency levels of front line aviation crews in the light of current flying hours cutbacks is, obviously, a growing concern.

What mitigation might come out remains to be seen. The most important factors are:
1) The crew are safe and sound
2)Lessons be learned ON BOTH SIDES of the aviation fence. Give the aircraft and the ships better nav kit. GIVE US AT LEAST A F&^KIN TACAN!!!!!!

Cheers

Rant complete, retreat to cave!! Grunt!

totally concur with .Mck....this has happened before and will happen again and again until we stop relying on people with a piece od paper and a pencil.

Sorry submariner. What was excellent about the job the crew did?

They ditched a fully serviceable Lynx Mk8 (there is not a shed full of them....) Perhaps the ship wasn't within 10 miles of recovery position, perhaps they got a false warm fuzzy feeling second hand from a bag but at the end of the day it comes down to the crew of the Lynx to get back with enough gas (Minimum Landing Allowance) to account for the errors in the system.

Still big questions suround the issues of currency and REAL standard of work-up between ships and their flights. Ask anyone in the RN Lynx community how many hours they did in the last year - and also how many of those were embarked.

submariner

U miss the point.

There is a difference between 'training' and 'practice'.

Im sorry fella but this incident has nothing to do with currency. I know Nottingham flight well and also know that they were fully worked up and were current, qualified and capable.

Agreed, flying hours were reduced last year and so the Lync community took it upon themselves to ration their hours and only fly good quality training. All erroneous tasks were politely refused and there was a lot of emphasis taken on quality flying training. Simulators were utilised as best as they could and during the later half of last year the restriction on flying hours was removed and so ALL crews had ample opportunity to continue with quality training.
The lasck of flying hours had nothing to do with this incident nor the previous incidents when a Lynx ran out of fuel. What could be more worrying is that (although Im not exactly sure), the only RN aircraft to run out of fuel on a regular basis (once a year) is the Lynx. Perhaps the MLA is wrong? Perhaps we train our people incorrectly...who knows?

vec

'the only RN aircraft to run out of fuel on a regular basis (once a year) is the Lynx'

Is it always the same crew?

:}

So why then did a Lynx flight have an allowance of 10 hours for a recent JMC .... plenty of hours for quality training? I think not!

Losing an aircraft under what should have been better than normal conditions is careless at best...

Three cockups happened simultaneously:

1. The Lynx crew lost track of Mother
2. Mother lost track of her Lynx
3. The Bag lost SA of the Lynx relative to Mother

Given the generally excellent nav kit on all three - all have GPS, the fact that all three are considered worked up and reasonably experienced, the chain of events leading to this accident may not appear so simple in the end.

Ultimately it will be (as it ought to be) the a/c captain who will carry the can - he lost his a/c, which was fully serviceable, by allowing it to run out of petrol.

As for the chimps who question the need to operate EMCON silent, they might like to think about what all these assets were doing at the time. It's not rocket science to figure out why you might not want people to know that you are in the vicinity in that part of the world.

slp

You livin in a different world to me fella!

Tell me, how do you achieve NEC in emcon silence? Cos it beats my tiny brain.

Semaphore flags or Aldis lamps, perhaps?

Down and nearly not out!
 

Let's face it - someone f*&ked up. Whether you believe it to be the Lynx crew, the bridge/ops room of the 42, or indeed the bag. That said I'm sure we've all been there in different circumstances and lets hope we learn something from this.

But what of the future - having alighted safely on the water I understand it still wasn't an easy task egressing from the aircraft as it decided to head towards the ocean floor.

With todays modern plug and play technology and the ongoing search for new helos to replace the FF/DD flts the future focus must surely be for a crash worthy aircraft that has better floating characteristics.

Afterall an aircraft is merely a platfrom to bolt sensors and weapons to so does it matter what it looks like or what its called so long as we survive the unforeseen when it comes our way.

And........ box!!!:E

Ha, Gotya....you must be a Merlin bloke!!!!