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Fairey Firefly at Duxford

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Fairey Firefly at Duxford

Old 16th Jul 2003, 01:12
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U_R
PPRune's not precious. We know many contributors (like us, for example) are not professional pilots, and many aren't even pilots far less professionals. Unfortunately, journos don't draw that distinction (nor can they reasonably be expected to) when they quote from the Professional Pilots' website. They don't know or care what expertise or experience (if any) the contributor has as long as they get a good quote.
'Improper' is too strong, but there's something distasteful about blaming a dead pilot for a crash before the investigation has taken place.

Cosmic Wind
Respect for the dead might just include waiting for the investigators to complete their task before attributing blame.
True, newspapers speculate each time there's an air crash - and pilots criticise them for it. (BTW, are you/were you the owner of an F1 racing aircraft of that name?)

skeptik
Two people are dead, two families have lost their loved ones - and you think the "real" tragedy is that there are no Fireflies left? Even if that was true, which it's not, how on earth does that come even close to the loss of two lives?
Remember the dead but also remember the pipe-dreamers?? If you've got the necessary skill and a genuine determination (not just a pipe-dream) to fly 'such an aeroplane', there are plenty left. Have you got to the Harvard stage yet?

beamer
Not sure I understand your first point.
It's nothing to do with 'the right to die doing something they loved.' Display pilots don't want to die in a crash, they want to die of old age like everyone else. But, they want the right to do something they love, accepting the risk they might die if something goes wrong. That's very different.
What do you think is the attitude of display pilots - based on those you've apparently met over the years?
My introduction to Warbird flying was riding around in the back of a P51 Mustang in displays (before 'they' banned it) flown by a very close friend; he'd been killed by the time I started flying displays myself. Lee Proudfoot carried on displaying after his father 'Hoof' was killed - possibly even started after, I can't remember now. Ray Hanna carried on after literally seeing his son crash (not in a display). I know Mark would have done if it had been the other way round. It so happens I'd finished displaying by then but, I would have carried on even though Mark was a very good friend.
It's not 'macho' at all, just a sad acceptance that things can go wrong and there will inevitably be fatal accidents. Military pilots often appear heartless and 'macho' when other pilots are killed, but nothing could be further from the truth; it's a way of coping.

Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 16th Jul 2003 at 03:35.
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Old 16th Jul 2003, 02:18
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Well put Flying Lawyer - for a lawyer you make far to much sense!
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Old 16th Jul 2003, 11:04
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A sad day indeed and like many posts, may I send my deepest sympathy to all the families of the two guys involved.

As I move forward in my aviation endeavours, it always makes me stop in my tracks when an event like this occurs. Many of us have flown thousands of hours without major incident and the old complacancy creeps in unseen. We take flying for granted and draw upon our skills to battle through whatever the trip holds for us.

An incident like this brings out the old addage "there for the grace of god go I" And its so true.

Stop, pause, respect and reflect. Thats all that can come out of a fatal crash.

As for the airframe? Well yes it is a sad loss too but compared to a life its just a heap of scrap. Someone somewhere will find enough bits to build another no doubt where these guys are gone forever.......the hardest thing about death.

Again my thoughts go with the families and hope th R.N. will assist them in every way possible.

Coop & sad Bear
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Old 16th Jul 2003, 16:15
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Flying Lawyer

Well said.

Would you have Ray Hanna's email address? If so could you kindly pm it to me.

Many thanks.
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Old 16th Jul 2003, 16:17
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Wink

Flying lawyer your post said it all! I would take issue with you on one small point; the term professional pilot is most often used to describe those of us who get paid to fly!

In my experience it more aptly describes a state of mind and I have met many so-called amateur pilots who have been very professional in their approach to aviation. I have also met a number of pilots who fly for a living who do not deserve the title professional I am sad to say.

However, your point is well made and I have commented on other threads that this site can be damaging to the industry at times. A few lazy journalists certainly quote this site as a reliable source of information, which it is not! The term professional and journalist often do not go hand in hand either!

Whatever happened at Duxford was an accident, blame is not the issue. We may never know for sure what happened, it could happen to any aviator at any time it is the nature of aviation there will always be an element of risk.
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Old 16th Jul 2003, 16:41
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Any livestream available of the DX crash?
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Old 16th Jul 2003, 20:19
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VR-HFX

I don't think Ray has any plans to come to terms with e-mail!
I suggest you use the general e-mail address below.

The Old Flying Machine Company
Duxford Airfield
Cambridge CB2 4QR
Tel: +44 1223 836705
Fax: +44 1223 834117

E-mail: [email protected]

If you have any difficulty, I'd be happy to pass on a message but I don't think it would be right to give out his home number. Hope you understand.

PS
Any significance in your unusual username?
Cathay Convair with that reg? 1967 or 1972?
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Old 16th Jul 2003, 23:06
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FL

Many thanks.

I am sure he is still too busy doing interesting things to waste his time with email.

Before my time but 1972 was HFZ. 1967 was HFX..the only piece of CX kit to ever end up in the Fragrant Harbour..hence the moniker.

Best wishes
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Old 16th Jul 2003, 23:21
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Leicester1, I was 500 m from the aircraft when it began to go wrong. I don't believe he was trying a barrel roll, but a climbing, steeply banked right turn. What I saw was consistent with losing the flow over one or both wings. When I saw the first 'twitch'. I thought he was intending to roll. This bothered me because the speed and height seemed insufficient. Then it went over, the nose dropped, and the rest you know. My wife believed he rolled the aircraft away from the M11 and the road where all the villagers stood, and aimed towards the empty field. This was not the first fatal I have seen, and believe me, I always hope they will be the last. Our condolences to families and friends.
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Old 17th Jul 2003, 00:45
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I wasn't at Duxford on Saturday. We heard the news at North Weald soon afterwards.

I did attend on Sunday. Being in two minds about it, I decided to go as a way of paying my respects.

What did surprise me was that there was no mention of the accident whatsoever. It was as if they had never existed. What was wrong with having a minute's silence before the display began?

Hats off though, to all the pilots who carried on under difficult circumstances to complete their displays on both days.

After the appalling way the media broadcast explicit footage of the accident very shortly after it had happened and the subsequent over-the-top reporting it doesn't help the aviation's case to speculate here.

I lost a friend in the L39 accident at Duxford. The AIIB report was published last week, and could not establish a definite cause. It annoys me that the media are now trying to link two completely different sets of circumstances to imply that Duxford is somehow not a place where airshows should be held.

My condolences go out to the families of the dead crew and to all those involved in the Royal Navy Historic Flight at this time. Let's hope they don't have to endure this trauma ever again.

RD
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Old 17th Jul 2003, 01:00
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Bill & Neil - arrangements

For those of you who wish to know (and I know there are many as the emails flow into the office), please follow the link to our website for information.

We are also collecting condolences via the website which will be passed on to both families in due course.

Allison Dufosee
Fly Navy Heritage Trust

Arrangements for Bill & Neil
 
Old 17th Jul 2003, 02:48
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Rallye Driver

The AIIB didn't find the direct cause of the apparent brake failure in the L39 crash - the investigators were unable to reproduce the problem - but the comments about certain aspects were as critical (restrained AAIB style) as I've ever seen in an AAIB Report.

I agree it's entirely wrong for the media to use either incident to suggest Duxford isn't safe. There's no basis for such criticism in the L39 Report.

If anyone's interested, click the link is below. It's worth reading.

AAIB Report into L39 accident at Duxford

Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 17th Jul 2003 at 06:25.
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Old 17th Jul 2003, 04:34
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They let me out to attend the Legends on Sunday.

I was horrfied that there was no mention of the loss of life that had occured the previous day. I had seen the Firefly heading east from my vantage point on its way to Duxford on Saturday at around 3000ft, it crossed the M1 close to Jct 12 at Toddington.

The show passed off without a hitch, but a few moments reflecting on the Firefly crash and remembering the 2 crew who gave thier lives for the gratification of the public, I am sure, would have been welcomed by all at the show, most of whom had either witnessed the crash first hand, or more probably seen the events on SKY news.

I sat next to a chap who had witnessed the crash the previous day, he fully expected a tribute to the crew, sadly Duxford decided to sweep the events of Saturday under the carpet.

The camo Westland over the crash site taking photo's was the only indication that a tragedy had occured.

Ironic how the PA voice of the day was full of praise for our lost heros from WW2.

All in all, a very strange reaction from IWM.

Brilliant display and the Wildcat sounds like the noise from my rear end following a fish eating binge! Phut, Phut, Phut!

2 JU52's in formation, what a sight!
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Old 17th Jul 2003, 05:28
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"After the appalling way the media broadcast explicit footage of the accident very shortly after it had happened"

Appalling? An accident in a public place at a public display? Are you suggesting censorship?

What about the Shuttle disasters? Or F1 accidents? Or any number of tragedies?

A tragedy has happened, but there is no case at all for criticising the media for reporting it, as soon as they could, and as best they could.
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Old 17th Jul 2003, 06:16
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Had it been a member of my family who died in such circumstances on Saturday, unexpectedly seeing such explicit images of the impact on television within a few hours would be deeply upsetting. I think that's what RD was meaning.
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Old 17th Jul 2003, 06:31
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Of course it's upsetting, PP. My point is that there are no grounds for censoring the report, apart from the usual policy of not showing harrowing pictures of the victims themselves.
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Old 17th Jul 2003, 16:28
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Whilst I am saddened by the deaths of the two guys onboard the Firefly, I am more saddened that those deaths should occur doing something as stupid as low level aerobatics in historic aeroplanes.

Leaving aside the fact that the aeroplane is probably irreplaceable (it is only an aeroplane, after all, and the lives of the aircrew are infinitely more valuable), has no-one learned from the accidents that we have seen over the years?

The P38 crash at Duxford a couple of years back was a classic example. These machines are NOT like modern aeroplanes and you can NOT take liberties with them. Most of the public would just be happy to see such machines in the air - a high speed, high power flypast with a Merlin/Griffin growling, followed by a nice, gentle wingover and another pass is enough for these museum pieces.

Leave the aeros to the Pitts and Zlins - they are designed for it

Last edited by moggie; 17th Jul 2003 at 16:39.
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Old 17th Jul 2003, 19:17
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Unwell Raptor

I'm not advocating censorship. The point that PP made was exactly what I was meaning.

From posts on other bulletin boards, it is clear that the footage was passed on to the news organisations without the knowledge or agreement of the camera crew, who as sub-contractors did not own the rights to the footage. It is also quite possible it was broadcast before the next of kin were informed.

To me this is unacceptable. Report the news - yes - but in a way that is sensitive to the feelings of the next of kin and allows the dead some dignity. Sensationalism just breeds further sensationalism and creates a totally false impression with the public.

RD
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Old 17th Jul 2003, 20:07
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RD is right - the footage aired a mere 35 minutes after the crash, having been sold by Red Admiral Productions (the company filming the airshow) to Sky and other TV channels. Personally I hope Red Admiral are never allowed on an airfield ever again - it's simply despicable to sell such footage before next of kin have even been informed. In the past any such footage has generally gone straight to the AAIB, not sold immediately to TV in order to line some scumbag's pocket. I've made a complaint to the Broadcasting Standards Commission anyway, for what good it may do. It would not have hurt Sky etc. to wait for the relatives to be informed before broadcasting such graphic footage over and over again overlaid with ill-informed comment.

As for doing aeros - if any of the people complaining about unsuitable manouevres in the Firefly had actually seen its display you would know it was one of gentler routines, very much in the mould of how the BBMF show off their aircraft. My impression on Saturday was that it did seem to be going a little slower than normal however - and it was a very hot day; I have no end of photos ruined by heat haze even when the subject was at several hundred feet - I've never seen that before, normally over about 50 feet and the air is clear enough for photos.
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Old 18th Jul 2003, 01:49
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Further to my earlier post, I would just like to add a word of agreement with NOD, RallyeDriver and DamienB.

There will be time enough to digest the findings of the RN Inquiry and the AAIB when it is published; in the meantime why not limit the comments to those you might have said to the crew if they were still with us. I am sure a person with the ink drying on their PPL might have been more circumspect if they were talking face to face.

Anne
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