Right to bear arms (Split Duh!)
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Excuse me 
If I have it right, British private citizens are not permited to own any handguns. Is that correct? When did this law go into effect? How was the law promulgated? Would someone please enlighten me?
If I have it right, British private citizens are not permited to own any handguns. Is that correct? When did this law go into effect? How was the law promulgated? Would someone please enlighten me?
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T_Richard,
Yes, you are correct. In the U.K, handguns can no longer be owned by the public.
The was a shooting in a school in Dunblane, in 1996, where one nutter went mad and shot up a town. Following that, the Government had a panic attack, and banned the public from owning any handguns.
It even extended as far as target pistols, which meant that the British olympic and Commonwealth teams then had to travel to mainland Europe to practice.
All that has happened since then, is the amount of gun crime continues to increase each year.
It just proves the old saying "when you criminalise guns, only criminals will have guns"
The government had exactly the same reaction a few years after Dunblane, when there was a spate of dogs attacking people.(mainly children). These were not generally family dogs, rather guard dogs, and dogs bread for fighting (illegal in the U.K). The majority of these were "pit bull type"dogs. (the pit bull is not a breed recognised by the U.K. kennel club). The Government then brought in the "Dangerous dogs act", which meant certain dogs had to be registered, muzzled in public and also microchipped.
It the police found one that was not registered or muzzled, it was put down, BUT, it was up to a panel of experts to first decide if it was a "pit bull type dog"
It makes a total mockery of the law if it takes a group of people to interpret it, as there is no definitive description of the type of dog.
I just want to state, I have never been a gun owner, nor have I ever owned a large dog, so I am not biased against either law. I am just stating my opinion of how stupid I think they both are.
Mr G
Yes, you are correct. In the U.K, handguns can no longer be owned by the public.
The was a shooting in a school in Dunblane, in 1996, where one nutter went mad and shot up a town. Following that, the Government had a panic attack, and banned the public from owning any handguns.
It even extended as far as target pistols, which meant that the British olympic and Commonwealth teams then had to travel to mainland Europe to practice.
All that has happened since then, is the amount of gun crime continues to increase each year.
It just proves the old saying "when you criminalise guns, only criminals will have guns"
The government had exactly the same reaction a few years after Dunblane, when there was a spate of dogs attacking people.(mainly children). These were not generally family dogs, rather guard dogs, and dogs bread for fighting (illegal in the U.K). The majority of these were "pit bull type"dogs. (the pit bull is not a breed recognised by the U.K. kennel club). The Government then brought in the "Dangerous dogs act", which meant certain dogs had to be registered, muzzled in public and also microchipped.
It the police found one that was not registered or muzzled, it was put down, BUT, it was up to a panel of experts to first decide if it was a "pit bull type dog"
It makes a total mockery of the law if it takes a group of people to interpret it, as there is no definitive description of the type of dog.
I just want to state, I have never been a gun owner, nor have I ever owned a large dog, so I am not biased against either law. I am just stating my opinion of how stupid I think they both are.
Mr G
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Interesting, I assumed that the voters in the UK had more power than that or am I wrong in my basic premis. Is the vast majority of the poplulation in favor of this consfication
Unfortunately it was a vocal minority who wanted legal possession of handguns in the UK banned. Whilst I had no desire to own one myself, the denial of a harmless, well regulated sporting activity to others was totally wrong. Similarly, if a shooting club allowed its members to fire an AK47 in a disused railway tunnel under controlled conditions, where was the harm?
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Jackonicko,
It's a worthwhile point. In the USA, it's one of the points of contention between pro- and anti- right to bear arms folks.
The problem is, the collection of statistics... if an armed criminal is killed, it's probable that no crime has been commited, and it won't be recorded. The more general problem is figuring out exactly how many crimes are *prevented* by gun use, without a shot even being fired. Can range from a homeowner simply displaying a gun to a burglar and them turning tail, to the burglar who decides to 'walk on bye' when he sees an 'armed response' sign, to the non-specific 'general deterrent' to crime, of knowing that many of the people around you are armed.
It's very difficult to collect statistics on crimes that *don't* happen!
The figures do seem to bear out the view that, where guns are widely owned and carried, crime is lower. Where laws that permit this are introduced, crime goes down.
To what extent this is cause and effect is another matter for debate!
R1
Does anyone have the statistics for the number of armed criminals killed by homeowners? And unarmed criminals?
The problem is, the collection of statistics... if an armed criminal is killed, it's probable that no crime has been commited, and it won't be recorded. The more general problem is figuring out exactly how many crimes are *prevented* by gun use, without a shot even being fired. Can range from a homeowner simply displaying a gun to a burglar and them turning tail, to the burglar who decides to 'walk on bye' when he sees an 'armed response' sign, to the non-specific 'general deterrent' to crime, of knowing that many of the people around you are armed.
It's very difficult to collect statistics on crimes that *don't* happen!
The figures do seem to bear out the view that, where guns are widely owned and carried, crime is lower. Where laws that permit this are introduced, crime goes down.
To what extent this is cause and effect is another matter for debate!
R1
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********Unfortunately it was a vocal minority who wanted legal possession of handguns in the UK banned.
I just sent the NRA a check for a lifetime membership. Someone on this thread I think it was Mike Jenvey claimed membership in the UK version of the NRA. What happened to them, didn't they protest this ban?
I just sent the NRA a check for a lifetime membership. Someone on this thread I think it was Mike Jenvey claimed membership in the UK version of the NRA. What happened to them, didn't they protest this ban?
T_richard
Sure we protested, individually and through our national shooting associations, both to politicians and through the press.
Unfortunately, pistol shooters are a small minority in the UK and are regarded as politically insignificant by both politicians and (especially) by the press who knew that they had got hold of a good story and saw great opportunities for increasing their circulation figures by campaigning for a ban. The politicians also recognised that, in the face of this press campaign, any member of parliament who stood up for shooters would stand a significant chance of not being re-elected next time round. It happened shortly before a general election, increasing their instincts for self preservation. As BEagle said, it was a vocal minority, ably supported by a compliant press, that campaigned for a ban.
I believe that there is still an action against the government going through the European Courts to the effect that shooters have had their human rights infringed by this ban.
My wife and I make no secret of the fact that we both indulge in target shooting as a sport, should the subject arise in the course of conversation - we do not, however, go around advertising the fact. In the six years since Dunblane, neither of us has met anyone who has believed that the handgun gun ban was put in place for other than reasons of political expedience, or that it has resulted in a significant decrease in gun related crime.
PS: is anyone else amazed that this thread hasn't been moved to another forum?
Sure we protested, individually and through our national shooting associations, both to politicians and through the press.
Unfortunately, pistol shooters are a small minority in the UK and are regarded as politically insignificant by both politicians and (especially) by the press who knew that they had got hold of a good story and saw great opportunities for increasing their circulation figures by campaigning for a ban. The politicians also recognised that, in the face of this press campaign, any member of parliament who stood up for shooters would stand a significant chance of not being re-elected next time round. It happened shortly before a general election, increasing their instincts for self preservation. As BEagle said, it was a vocal minority, ably supported by a compliant press, that campaigned for a ban.
I believe that there is still an action against the government going through the European Courts to the effect that shooters have had their human rights infringed by this ban.
My wife and I make no secret of the fact that we both indulge in target shooting as a sport, should the subject arise in the course of conversation - we do not, however, go around advertising the fact. In the six years since Dunblane, neither of us has met anyone who has believed that the handgun gun ban was put in place for other than reasons of political expedience, or that it has resulted in a significant decrease in gun related crime.
PS: is anyone else amazed that this thread hasn't been moved to another forum?
Iconoclast
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It depends on where you live.
I M Esperto says that in New Jersey you can’t own a handgun. When I worked in Alabama I was eligible at six months to not only purchase a gun I could get a carry permit. Since I already owned a gun all I had to do was register it and apply for the permit. When I worked in Indiana I was eligible to purchase a handgun with six months residency. When I lived in Montana I purchased a Ruger 45 caliber automatic. I had to fill out the Brady forms, which were faxed, to the County Sheriff for filing and investigation of my background. I asked the gun storeowner what the Sheriff did with the papers. I was told he filed them in the wastebasket. I asked why and was told first of all the Sheriff was totally against the Brady Bill and secondly the Federal Government did not provide the necessary funding for the background investigation.
Note: Just about everybody in Montana carries a gun or has one in his car or pick-up or, both.
In Texas the bars have signs that state it is unlawful to bring a handgun onto the premises.
Note: Just about everybody in Montana carries a gun or has one in his car or pick-up or, both.
In Texas the bars have signs that state it is unlawful to bring a handgun onto the premises.
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Well If you wanted to point out the safety problems of gun ownership in the USA, here it is on Yahoo Entertainment News 4/10/03
**********SEAN PENN The surly ex-Spicoli is on the hunt for his old-school black 1987 Buick Grand National, which was stolen Tuesday in Berkeley, California, in plain daylight, off a busy street, while he ate lunch in a nearby restaurant. The car crook also snagged two guns, a loaded 9mm Glock and an unloaded .38-caliber Smith and Wesson revolver, Penn kept inside.
The idiot HAS a carry permit, but he can't remember to keep the pistol with him. And what is he doing with a second gun in the car. So now there are two new guns in the secondary market, I wonder if he'll be held accountable for his gross stupidity. He must have been so distraught after GWB didin't head his advice on Foreign Policy in the Middle East.
For all my UK antagonists, this is the problem in America, its not that we own so many hand guns its that any Hollywood moron can get one and then they screw up royally making the reast of us look like terrorists.
Can't you find a nice flat for Mr. Penn in London, I'll pay his airfare over, please
**********SEAN PENN The surly ex-Spicoli is on the hunt for his old-school black 1987 Buick Grand National, which was stolen Tuesday in Berkeley, California, in plain daylight, off a busy street, while he ate lunch in a nearby restaurant. The car crook also snagged two guns, a loaded 9mm Glock and an unloaded .38-caliber Smith and Wesson revolver, Penn kept inside.
The idiot HAS a carry permit, but he can't remember to keep the pistol with him. And what is he doing with a second gun in the car. So now there are two new guns in the secondary market, I wonder if he'll be held accountable for his gross stupidity. He must have been so distraught after GWB didin't head his advice on Foreign Policy in the Middle East.
For all my UK antagonists, this is the problem in America, its not that we own so many hand guns its that any Hollywood moron can get one and then they screw up royally making the reast of us look like terrorists.
Can't you find a nice flat for Mr. Penn in London, I'll pay his airfare over, please
Mike,
Another fact we have to bear in mind....the difference in the population density...land use practices...basically the availibility of wide open spaces in most parts of the USA where shooting firearms presents no problem as compared to the UK where the opposite situation exists. For all of the people that criticize the NRA....they (the NRA) very strongly support the safe , legal use of firearms to include the establishment, operation, and publication of proper ranges.
The basic problem with gun control is that all of the laws and bans being pushed by the anti-gun lobby are targetted at the law abiding citizen and not the criminal element that are in violation of the current myriad of gun laws now in existence. If one were to carry their concepts to the end....there would be no cars....due to the death and injury rate from accidents. Loggers would be training beavers to fell trees....due to the accidents from the use of chain saws.....and on and on.
It is not the lawful, safe use of firearms that causes the problem....I fail to see the difference in being killed by an armed robber if he uses a gun, axe, baseball bat, or knitting needle.....I am just as dead.
Unfortunately, our casual attitude is towards the lack of punishment for the violent criminal. Take yourself back to the recent murder of two young girls in the UK.....even with all of the press coverage it got....as horrific as the murders were.....they for all intents and purposes have been forgotten and the killer will not face the death penalty himself. Where is the justice in that?
Another fact we have to bear in mind....the difference in the population density...land use practices...basically the availibility of wide open spaces in most parts of the USA where shooting firearms presents no problem as compared to the UK where the opposite situation exists. For all of the people that criticize the NRA....they (the NRA) very strongly support the safe , legal use of firearms to include the establishment, operation, and publication of proper ranges.
The basic problem with gun control is that all of the laws and bans being pushed by the anti-gun lobby are targetted at the law abiding citizen and not the criminal element that are in violation of the current myriad of gun laws now in existence. If one were to carry their concepts to the end....there would be no cars....due to the death and injury rate from accidents. Loggers would be training beavers to fell trees....due to the accidents from the use of chain saws.....and on and on.
It is not the lawful, safe use of firearms that causes the problem....I fail to see the difference in being killed by an armed robber if he uses a gun, axe, baseball bat, or knitting needle.....I am just as dead.
Unfortunately, our casual attitude is towards the lack of punishment for the violent criminal. Take yourself back to the recent murder of two young girls in the UK.....even with all of the press coverage it got....as horrific as the murders were.....they for all intents and purposes have been forgotten and the killer will not face the death penalty himself. Where is the justice in that?
Groundgripper, I had wondered that myself actually as the only post with any vague military connections was the first!
Excellent debate though, by two sides neither of which is going to give any ground.
Excellent debate though, by two sides neither of which is going to give any ground.
Mike,
In North Carolina...when we instituted a mandatory seven year prison sentence (no plea bargain, no parole, no probation) for armed robbery....the robbery rate plummeted. Currently...armed robbery can fetch from 7-20 years in the State Pen. IMHO, a mandatory sentence of 30 years would be fair too.
When you begin to run statistics....some very politically uncorrect numbers will jump out at you particularly when filtered by RACE....
An example...when I was a police officer in Charlotte, North Carolina...stats noted 90% of violent crime was committed by 30% of the population based upon ethnicity. Blacks thus committed violent crimes at a rate three times of other races. Black men under the age of 25 are involved with the criminal justice system as prisoners, on parole, probation, work release, or under arrest awaiting trial to the tune of 60% of the blackmale under 25 population. Murder is the biggest killer of young black men....their killers are also black in the vast majority of the events.
The really sad thing is the Black Community in general, refuses to accept any responsibility for this situation. The breakdown of the family, traditional refusal to assist the police, rampant rate ofout of marriage births, drug use and trafficking, school leaving....all are factors that contribute to this and yet, the Black leaders refuse to address the issue.
As the UK encounters a less homogenous culture, so too will the problems occur there as it has here. The old days of the Bobby being able to deal with criminals with a kind word and a firm manner will disappear. Criminals are predators....and prey on the weak and defenseless....that runs across all political boundaries.
In this country...where we have allowed ordinary people to carry concealed firearms....the crime rate has decreased dramatically. To date.....the incidents of criminal acts by properly licensed people are very rare.....rare enough to be considered nil. Logically, it would seem arming the victims is the right method....criminals will always seek out easier pickings. That is why a strong Neighborhood Watch system works....and it is the same for armed citizens. Right now...in most places...the crooks are the ones with the guns which is absolutely backwards in my book.
In North Carolina...when we instituted a mandatory seven year prison sentence (no plea bargain, no parole, no probation) for armed robbery....the robbery rate plummeted. Currently...armed robbery can fetch from 7-20 years in the State Pen. IMHO, a mandatory sentence of 30 years would be fair too.
When you begin to run statistics....some very politically uncorrect numbers will jump out at you particularly when filtered by RACE....
An example...when I was a police officer in Charlotte, North Carolina...stats noted 90% of violent crime was committed by 30% of the population based upon ethnicity. Blacks thus committed violent crimes at a rate three times of other races. Black men under the age of 25 are involved with the criminal justice system as prisoners, on parole, probation, work release, or under arrest awaiting trial to the tune of 60% of the blackmale under 25 population. Murder is the biggest killer of young black men....their killers are also black in the vast majority of the events.
The really sad thing is the Black Community in general, refuses to accept any responsibility for this situation. The breakdown of the family, traditional refusal to assist the police, rampant rate ofout of marriage births, drug use and trafficking, school leaving....all are factors that contribute to this and yet, the Black leaders refuse to address the issue.
As the UK encounters a less homogenous culture, so too will the problems occur there as it has here. The old days of the Bobby being able to deal with criminals with a kind word and a firm manner will disappear. Criminals are predators....and prey on the weak and defenseless....that runs across all political boundaries.
In this country...where we have allowed ordinary people to carry concealed firearms....the crime rate has decreased dramatically. To date.....the incidents of criminal acts by properly licensed people are very rare.....rare enough to be considered nil. Logically, it would seem arming the victims is the right method....criminals will always seek out easier pickings. That is why a strong Neighborhood Watch system works....and it is the same for armed citizens. Right now...in most places...the crooks are the ones with the guns which is absolutely backwards in my book.
Neighborhood Watch groups are not armed....basically just nosy neighbors who call the police anytime a stranger shows up in other than "normal" circumstances....for example...your next door neighbor is in Spain for a fortnight's holiday...and unknown folks are seen entering the house late at night...will generate an immediate call to the police....complete with car license number, description of car...suspects....running commentary on their conduct...until the cops arrive. No guns...no sticks....maybe video tapes or photographs....merely a "good neighbor" thing. Makes the thieves want to look for other places that are not so protected.
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Mike....... picture your best friend's elderly busybody spinster aunt sitting by the window all day watching the traffic go down the street. That's the best definition of a American Neighborhood Watch I can give you. In some more troubled inner city neighborhoods the local minister might get some of the parents to carry walkie-talkies and patrol the streets til say midnight. No vigilantes.
Unless you wander in to my neighborhood after dark. We use RPG's on the cars, claymores for groups of 5 or more and my famous 3 .45s inside the ten ring for those who survive.
They never comeback, wonder why
Unless you wander in to my neighborhood after dark. We use RPG's on the cars, claymores for groups of 5 or more and my famous 3 .45s inside the ten ring for those who survive. They never comeback, wonder why
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To 46Driver et al,
Population of USA - approx 275 million
Guns owned/registered to civilians - 250million
Number of defensive gun uses (DGUs) by civilians - 2.5million
Percentage of DGU's in which no shot is fired - 92%
Percentage of DGU's in which a shot is fired and the shot is AT the attacker - 2%
This kinda negates the "home protection" myth you are all so fond of.
Cheers
Population of USA - approx 275 million
Guns owned/registered to civilians - 250million
Number of defensive gun uses (DGUs) by civilians - 2.5million
Percentage of DGU's in which no shot is fired - 92%
Percentage of DGU's in which a shot is fired and the shot is AT the attacker - 2%
This kinda negates the "home protection" myth you are all so fond of.
Cheers
