Airman Aircrew pay review
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Get out early
Thank you, thank you, for making my mind up for me!
I have only two years left to my IPP and GUESS WHAT? No money for me so..... its time to go!
The review has missed the point completely, we know that. Congratulations to the two MACR on the team - for those of you who have done well...and you know who you are....well done!!
Just a small point for anyone coming up to their IPP - did you hear today that the EU are thinking of amending the rules for Tax Free lump sums for anyone taking a pension?
If it goes ahead (think - more money to the treasury ??) it will be on the books in TWO YEARS !!
Get out while you can with a bit more dosh!!
As for what to do when I leave - Anyone want their house rewiring??!!
I have only two years left to my IPP and GUESS WHAT? No money for me so..... its time to go!
The review has missed the point completely, we know that. Congratulations to the two MACR on the team - for those of you who have done well...and you know who you are....well done!!
Just a small point for anyone coming up to their IPP - did you hear today that the EU are thinking of amending the rules for Tax Free lump sums for anyone taking a pension?
If it goes ahead (think - more money to the treasury ??) it will be on the books in TWO YEARS !!
Get out while you can with a bit more dosh!!
As for what to do when I leave - Anyone want their house rewiring??!!
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WARMINTHEMIDDLE
"However, there are AEO flying duties that have no direct read-across from the AEOp duties (MR2 - including captaincy, R1 – including Mission Cdr and E-3D – including Tac Director/Weapons Controller) and cannot be filled by AEOps fulfilling duties on the same platforms"
Why not ? No reason why they couldn't do these 'AEO' jobs with new 'empowerment' of MACR etc. In fact many AEOps could probably do a better job !
Typed with an English accent, H-R
"However, there are AEO flying duties that have no direct read-across from the AEOp duties (MR2 - including captaincy, R1 – including Mission Cdr and E-3D – including Tac Director/Weapons Controller) and cannot be filled by AEOps fulfilling duties on the same platforms"
Why not ? No reason why they couldn't do these 'AEO' jobs with new 'empowerment' of MACR etc. In fact many AEOps could probably do a better job !
Typed with an English accent, H-R
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Why should NCO aircrew recieve flying pay! Iam sure any up and coming young thruster would do your job for no FP and just be grateful to be flying. Boys the 2nd world war has finished, the RAF can't go on living of the past.
Yes! I agree a pilot earns his keep but even if you dictated his/her terms and conditions prior to employing them they too would fly for no FP. After all they will leave the service with a few thousand hrs, which will stand them in good stead to seek a civil job.
With the exeption of the Flight Engineer, what else can other members of the RAF NCO flying faterity do in civy st--- F----l.
Yes! I agree a pilot earns his keep but even if you dictated his/her terms and conditions prior to employing them they too would fly for no FP. After all they will leave the service with a few thousand hrs, which will stand them in good stead to seek a civil job.
With the exeption of the Flight Engineer, what else can other members of the RAF NCO flying faterity do in civy st--- F----l.
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Why is it that whenever a subject like this comes along the "tampon" has to rear his ugly ill informed head
"Why should NCO aircrew recieve flying pay!"
I did think of all sorts of suitable answers like -
" how many decisions do you make on a daily basis that can, if wrong, kill sh@t loads of people"
or
" after completing GST1 + 2 as both Cpl and Sgt I found the AAITC the hardest thing I have ever endured"
or
"how many times a year do you have your professional competancy checked.......by the sound of your diatribe....never"
or
The list goes on and on
But then I thought why not fall back on the tried and tested responses to your sort.............the reason NCO Aircrew get flying pay is
"because they can and YOU can't"
"cos they worked harder at school than blunties like "sanitory man"
"they really enjoy winding up the city fathers and the like by being better paid"
"they enjoy the satisfaction of knowing that whingeing tw@ts like "Dr W", let face the only wings you will ever get are if you purchase "always", are incapable of ever aspiring to their level of achievment due to either lack of education, lack of fitness or LMF
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Always
Very well said me old.
Sorry, I couldn't get passed the yawning stage!!
Compared to other threads, this one has done very well
in not attracting nutters like Admin Guru etc etc.
Until now..........
Very well said me old.
Sorry, I couldn't get passed the yawning stage!!
Compared to other threads, this one has done very well
in not attracting nutters like Admin Guru etc etc.
Until now..........
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H-R, you miss my point (deliberately?). There is no doubt that many (but not all) AEOps – especially those individuals who have been merit-promoted over the past 13 years or so - have the potential and ability to perform any AEO role. The intention was not to impugn the abilities of any AEOp - I used to be one after all. My point was that unless they’re changing aircraft type, newly commissioned Engs/ALMs can return immediately from the brain change/removal at Cranwell, to do exactly the same job as their NCA colleagues. In contrast, Ab-initio AEOs posted to mainstream ac (MR2, E-3D, R1) take on a totally new role that requires full OCU training followed by sqn categorization. In this way there is no direct read-across - nuff said?
The AE brevet affords considerably better commissioning opportunities than any other NCA specialization. An 18-year old DE AEOp currently has a much better chance of achieving Wg Cdr rank than his ALM/Eng counterparts – particularly if commissioned under age 25. The AEO role allows those individuals who aspire to MR2 captaincy, R1 mission command and E-3D Tac Directorship, to achieve their goals. Furthermore, this strengthens the position of the AE brevet within the WSO/Op branch. Always Broken In Wilts trumpets the death knell of the rear crew officer cadre, and that may be true in terms of the Eng/ALM specializations because of the “read-across” factor. The same cannot be said of the AEO specialization, thankfully.
My message to any AEOp is to take Charlie Luncher’s advice - put your ability where your mouth is by entering the commissioning competition. If you don’t aspire to commissioned duties, that’s fine – a broad range of AEOp employments remain available. If those employments don’t meet your requirements, either leave the Service while you are still young enough for a second career or wait until IPP and leave with some money.
Left 1 and Right – Chap, (or Man) you haven’t changed a bit (unless you’ve had a nose job that is…….) – the 2 Macr on the AASS did the best that they could under the circumstances and so your sarcasm is ill-targeted. Were you only hanging on for the money then? My house doesn’t need re-wiring so………….BYE BYE
Keep Smilin'*/Moanin'*
* Delete as Applicable
The AE brevet affords considerably better commissioning opportunities than any other NCA specialization. An 18-year old DE AEOp currently has a much better chance of achieving Wg Cdr rank than his ALM/Eng counterparts – particularly if commissioned under age 25. The AEO role allows those individuals who aspire to MR2 captaincy, R1 mission command and E-3D Tac Directorship, to achieve their goals. Furthermore, this strengthens the position of the AE brevet within the WSO/Op branch. Always Broken In Wilts trumpets the death knell of the rear crew officer cadre, and that may be true in terms of the Eng/ALM specializations because of the “read-across” factor. The same cannot be said of the AEO specialization, thankfully.
My message to any AEOp is to take Charlie Luncher’s advice - put your ability where your mouth is by entering the commissioning competition. If you don’t aspire to commissioned duties, that’s fine – a broad range of AEOp employments remain available. If those employments don’t meet your requirements, either leave the Service while you are still young enough for a second career or wait until IPP and leave with some money.
Left 1 and Right – Chap, (or Man) you haven’t changed a bit (unless you’ve had a nose job that is…….) – the 2 Macr on the AASS did the best that they could under the circumstances and so your sarcasm is ill-targeted. Were you only hanging on for the money then? My house doesn’t need re-wiring so………….BYE BYE
Keep Smilin'*/Moanin'*
* Delete as Applicable
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Big Picture
I am pleased that at last AA are about to be paid in line with their commissioned aircrew peers. I use the word peers because for too many years now we have treated certain specialisation in the aircrew world with utter disdain. (I'm better than you etc).
I hope a 'common brevet' will allow greater movement of personnel throughout the aircrew world and maybe remove the snobbery that surrounds the employement of suitably qualified NCA to pilot duties.
Unfortunately, I have several reservations with the pay review. It seems from a read through that PAS FS/MACR will be barred from commissioning. This will probably drive our youngest and brightest out of the AA branches. Additionally, the empowering of MACR, irrespective of their abilities, will in my view be the most damaging result of this review. Without a commissioned voice in the future each and everyone of you is going to have no representation at that level and will almost certainly be left out of any decision making at squadron executive level and beyond.
This pay policy will turn you into well-paid button pushers, removing any hope of having commission representation in the future.
I hope a 'common brevet' will allow greater movement of personnel throughout the aircrew world and maybe remove the snobbery that surrounds the employement of suitably qualified NCA to pilot duties.
Unfortunately, I have several reservations with the pay review. It seems from a read through that PAS FS/MACR will be barred from commissioning. This will probably drive our youngest and brightest out of the AA branches. Additionally, the empowering of MACR, irrespective of their abilities, will in my view be the most damaging result of this review. Without a commissioned voice in the future each and everyone of you is going to have no representation at that level and will almost certainly be left out of any decision making at squadron executive level and beyond.
This pay policy will turn you into well-paid button pushers, removing any hope of having commission representation in the future.
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Eng: Agree with your sentiments entirely regarding officer representation - it's sort of what I was getting at in my last post. As far as the NCA PAS goes though, I'd disagree on one aspect. The PAS will, surely, only be offered to individuals as an option beyond the 22-year point. It will undoubtedly contain some bright operators - but none of them will be spring chickens...........
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No job outside according to Dr White?
Ever heard of project Jigsaw?
Oil companies are moving towards the use of Super Pumas instead of rig support vessels, the CAA say they can do it as long as they have SAR qualified rear crew, (min 1 yrs experience).
STARTING pay min 44K max 51K, this rises incrementally for 10 yrs.
Extra cash for paramedic qual, intstuctor tick, fire fighting etc.
2 weeks on 2 weeks off. 12 hrs on/off while on shift.
4 weeks leave a year, (and yes you can take it over your 2 weeks on period).
Travel to and from embarcation airport paid for, so live where you want.
At the moment it is only Shell I believe but exxon and BP are looking with interest.
And guess what SARTU at Valley are going to do some of the training. DHFS making cash.
Will the last NCA out of the SAR farce please turn off the lights.
Ever heard of project Jigsaw?
Oil companies are moving towards the use of Super Pumas instead of rig support vessels, the CAA say they can do it as long as they have SAR qualified rear crew, (min 1 yrs experience).
STARTING pay min 44K max 51K, this rises incrementally for 10 yrs.
Extra cash for paramedic qual, intstuctor tick, fire fighting etc.
2 weeks on 2 weeks off. 12 hrs on/off while on shift.
4 weeks leave a year, (and yes you can take it over your 2 weeks on period).
Travel to and from embarcation airport paid for, so live where you want.
At the moment it is only Shell I believe but exxon and BP are looking with interest.
And guess what SARTU at Valley are going to do some of the training. DHFS making cash.
Will the last NCA out of the SAR farce please turn off the lights.
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2ndclasscitizen - a little OTT on the salary, but not by much (more info if required).
WarmInTheMiddle - PW, right era but smaller nose. Although I do hear that Gonzo is considering a career change and is thinking of becoming a plumber!!
I fear that you missed my point twixt the moanin'. There is no incentive to stay in past 22 years. Indeed a 10k pension and 30k (taxman permitting) is a positive incentive to go, especially if you have a job to go to (I refer the Hon gentleman to the posting from 2ndclasscitizen ). Throwing money at those who were going to stay in untill their 22 point anyway has created a lot of bad feeling amongst those who are at, or just past, that point. Watch this space RE Jigsaw.
You say that I should not have had a go at the team as 'they' did your best under the circumstances. I was under the impression that this review started with a 'clean sheet of paper' and 'no preconceptions'!! Please explain what you mean.
WarmInTheMiddle - PW, right era but smaller nose. Although I do hear that Gonzo is considering a career change and is thinking of becoming a plumber!!
I fear that you missed my point twixt the moanin'. There is no incentive to stay in past 22 years. Indeed a 10k pension and 30k (taxman permitting) is a positive incentive to go, especially if you have a job to go to (I refer the Hon gentleman to the posting from 2ndclasscitizen ). Throwing money at those who were going to stay in untill their 22 point anyway has created a lot of bad feeling amongst those who are at, or just past, that point. Watch this space RE Jigsaw.
You say that I should not have had a go at the team as 'they' did your best under the circumstances. I was under the impression that this review started with a 'clean sheet of paper' and 'no preconceptions'!! Please explain what you mean.
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Left One And Right: PW - firstly, profuse and abject apologies for confusing you with Gonzo – on second thoughts, I may actually have some re-wiring work (on my mother-in-law’s new chair) to put your way.Ref the AASS. The Service has never actually been very worried about people who leave at the 22-year point. As the first IPP for NCA, 22 years is an expected source of exits and is THE major factor considered by Strategic Manpower Planners when they set annual recruiting targets. That the AFCOs have failed dismally to achieve those targets over the past 6 years or so stands as an indictment of the Service’s recruiting directorate at Cranwell. Most people serving beyond 22 years have guaranteed employment at £40k+ per year and, if not already engaged to age 55, the chance to achieve that engagement (if they’re good enough) via the annual re-engagement board. By and large then, the Service doesn’t expect to lose many of the “service to 55” mob either.
As they are in place for 3 years, the AASS measures actually target people from the 14-year point onwards. The bean-counters have focussed specifically on those individuals who, when beyond the 12-year point, opt to start new careers and tell the Service to st*ff their pension. £13k net might (just) be enough to keep some of those people in to that magical 22-year point. I could suggest an entirely cynical reason for choosing the 14-17 years (and a bit for the 18-20 year boys) group. Somewhere, someone in the Treasury has moved a (limited total amount) award “bracket” up and down a spreadsheet of the entire 12-22 year NCA cadre until the award figure roughly matches (ie does not exceed) that limited total amount……. No, forget I said that…….
I’ve not had a chance to speak to the 2 Macr on the AASS team and so do not know their personal views on the outcome of the AASS. What I do know is that the one with the same initials as you has never been anyone’s poodle. However, given that the 2 Macr enjoyed unprecedented (members of the rear crew officer cadre were not included in similar studies) access to the workings of the AASS, I begin to wonder what people actually expected them to achieve. Beyond ensuring that ALL the issues that concerned NCA were considered by the AASS, the 2 Macr, like the officers on the AASS, could only make recommendations for the AFBSC (and the Treasury) to consider - hence my phrase "under the circumstances" - also, see below for some groundrules.
Which sort of brings us back to the original subject of the thread – What did people actually expect from the AASS? Moreover, instead of picking the study apart, why not make (realistic) suggestions about what should have been done? Only 2 rules (as I’m sure the 2 Macr quickly found out) apply when making any suggestions: 1. There is little, if any new money available. 2. The minute you begin forming the words “special case for NCA” in your mind, remember that the Treasury will laugh you out of court…...
Keep Smilin’*/Moanin’*
*Delete as applicable
P.S. Once again PW – sorry for confusing you with Gonzo
P.P.S. I definitely have no need of a plumber......
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Afternoon All!
I see that someone has been using my name (and facial features) in vain! Identity theft is a crime, just ask the old man back from South Africa.
WarmInTheMiddle
You are obviously someone I have had dealings with in the past and profess to know how I think! Well, I agree with the remarks of LeftOneAndRight. At the moment I am lucky enough to be in a job that I really do enjoy. What the future holds? Who knows? I will wait and see!
LeftOneAndRight
I'll see you soon.
Its Friday, so I'm off home for a beer.
I see that someone has been using my name (and facial features) in vain! Identity theft is a crime, just ask the old man back from South Africa.
WarmInTheMiddle
You are obviously someone I have had dealings with in the past and profess to know how I think! Well, I agree with the remarks of LeftOneAndRight. At the moment I am lucky enough to be in a job that I really do enjoy. What the future holds? Who knows? I will wait and see!
LeftOneAndRight
I'll see you soon.
Its Friday, so I'm off home for a beer.
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Gonzo
Sorry Guv, I'll keep my lips zipped in future!
WITM
Thanks for the insight but I don't think it changes my view about life on the outside. Have a look at the 'would you encourage your children to join' forum. There are a lot of people who have made a good life for themselves outside and I think that I'll join them.
By the way, I thought that you were PW! (Wit M)
Sorry Guv, I'll keep my lips zipped in future!
WITM
Thanks for the insight but I don't think it changes my view about life on the outside. Have a look at the 'would you encourage your children to join' forum. There are a lot of people who have made a good life for themselves outside and I think that I'll join them.
By the way, I thought that you were PW! (Wit M)
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Back to the thread.
There are some good things to come out of this review but it would depend on how they are handled. The proposed change to training is one of them.
I am very much in favour of re-training. It keeps the individual fresh and on their toes.
One problem though. How do you persuade a 18/19 year old to join as NCA when all he/she wants to be is say, a Chinook crewman? Do you say ‘well you are NCA first and a crewman second’ (as you would with a commissioned pilot ‘officer first – pilot second’). Or do you say ‘well you will more than likely have to do five years in a job of our choosing (depending on where we are short of people). At the end of that you might have a chance of being retrained to the specialisation that you are interested in’. How will the recruiters manage that, bearing in mind that some of them will be MACR themselves?
Can you imagine what the interest would be in commissioned service in the RAF if everyone who joined were told ‘well, we will make you an officer first and then we will decide later if you go Ops Support, Admin Sec or Navigator’?
Interesting and I wait to see how it is handled.
There are some good things to come out of this review but it would depend on how they are handled. The proposed change to training is one of them.
I am very much in favour of re-training. It keeps the individual fresh and on their toes.
One problem though. How do you persuade a 18/19 year old to join as NCA when all he/she wants to be is say, a Chinook crewman? Do you say ‘well you are NCA first and a crewman second’ (as you would with a commissioned pilot ‘officer first – pilot second’). Or do you say ‘well you will more than likely have to do five years in a job of our choosing (depending on where we are short of people). At the end of that you might have a chance of being retrained to the specialisation that you are interested in’. How will the recruiters manage that, bearing in mind that some of them will be MACR themselves?
Can you imagine what the interest would be in commissioned service in the RAF if everyone who joined were told ‘well, we will make you an officer first and then we will decide later if you go Ops Support, Admin Sec or Navigator’?
Interesting and I wait to see how it is handled.
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Left etc,
Call me an old cynic , many do, but I see this new "wheel", as do many many others in a completely differant light to you.
It seems blindingly obvious to me that in order to fill all the "unpopular" seats first you need to initially remove an individuals right to select his/hers desired trade. By making everyone join as NCA then selecting their trade specialisation for them, irrespective of the individuals wishes, you are merely making the binsworth bods job easy and consigning people to jobs they really do not want to do. Not an ideal situation.
It's an established fact that recruiting guys for the kipper fleet is bl@@dy difficult and if I were a betting man then I would have my mortgage on the first bunch of poor misguided souls, anyone know a CIO that ever told the WHOLE truth , will be destined for Ice Station Kilo, with many more to follow
As for the proposed chance to retrain...........pleeeease Speak to the guys in the rotary world about how difficult it is to move across to fixed wing. You have to have either crashed or be on the long term sick list to escape, and this is primarily to do with manpower shortages but also to do with the cost involved with re-training.
Do you seriously believe that the poor soul who gets sent to the frozen north, spends two tours getting up to speed, is going to suddenly be offered the chance to become the Eng/Alm he always wanted......good grief
Just imagine you are a beancounter faced with the two following options:-
a We have an experianced kipper mate who wants to go Alm. We bring the next NCA thru as Aeop, long course at Cranwell followed by OCU followed by further training on the squadron. This allows our already experianced kipper mate to leave Kilo for Cranwell to start training as Alm, followed by OCu etc. This equals 2 Cranwell course, 2 OCU's etc etc etc
b We have experianced kipper mate who wants to go Alm. But if we bring the next NCA thru as ALM this only costs us 1 Cranwell course and 1 OCU etc.....................hum tough choice this one
Factor in all the admin charges, removals etc, involved with moving people from station to station and I am convinced the money will simply not be there. This is nothing more than a very clever move, by stealth, to get bums on seats and has nothing to do with empowering the individual with the opportunity to shape their future.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Call me an old cynic
, many do, but I see this new "wheel", as do many many others in a completely differant light to you. It seems blindingly obvious to me that in order to fill all the "unpopular" seats first you need to initially remove an individuals right to select his/hers desired trade. By making everyone join as NCA then selecting their trade specialisation for them, irrespective of the individuals wishes, you are merely making the binsworth bods job easy and consigning people to jobs they really do not want to do. Not an ideal situation.
It's an established fact that recruiting guys for the kipper fleet is bl@@dy difficult and if I were a betting man then I would have my mortgage on the first bunch of poor misguided souls, anyone know a CIO that ever told the WHOLE truth
, will be destined for Ice Station Kilo, with many more to follow As for the proposed chance to retrain...........pleeeease
Speak to the guys in the rotary world about how difficult it is to move across to fixed wing. You have to have either crashed or be on the long term sick list to escape, and this is primarily to do with manpower shortages but also to do with the cost involved with re-training.Do you seriously believe that the poor soul who gets sent to the frozen north, spends two tours getting up to speed, is going to suddenly be offered the chance to become the Eng/Alm he always wanted......good grief
Just imagine you are a beancounter faced with the two following options:-
a We have an experianced kipper mate who wants to go Alm. We bring the next NCA thru as Aeop, long course at Cranwell followed by OCU followed by further training on the squadron. This allows our already experianced kipper mate to leave Kilo for Cranwell to start training as Alm, followed by OCu etc. This equals 2 Cranwell course, 2 OCU's etc etc etc
b We have experianced kipper mate who wants to go Alm. But if we bring the next NCA thru as ALM this only costs us 1 Cranwell course and 1 OCU etc.....................hum tough choice this one
Factor in all the admin charges, removals etc, involved with moving people from station to station and I am convinced the money will simply not be there. This is nothing more than a very clever move, by stealth, to get bums on seats and has nothing to do with empowering the individual with the opportunity to shape their future.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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You are missing the point, do you really belive that an AEOP would really want to be an ALM anyway? Let's face it, the quality of life issues, such as not being able to settle in one location, family stability, not living in tents and the opportunity of career enhancement are already in place North of the Boreder (intentional sp mistake).
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Nutty ol fella,
Had'nt looked at it that way. However after a few years under under canvas etc with the rotary fleet I now find myself firmly ensconsed in Wiltshire as a plankie bast@rd, so long as the wilts airbase remains open
And there are hundreds of loadies here with all the qualities of life you mention.............but without the 400 mile drive you have to reach civilisation
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Had'nt looked at it that way. However after a few years under under canvas etc with the rotary fleet I now find myself firmly ensconsed in Wiltshire as a plankie bast@rd, so long as the wilts airbase remains open
And there are hundreds of loadies here with all the qualities of life you mention.............but without the 400 mile drive you have to reach civilisation
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
