CDS Vs Hoon
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CDS Vs Hoon
You may enjoy this;
Today's joint news conference with Chief of Defence Staff Admiral Sir Michael Boyce and Defence secretary Geoff Hoon was 'interesting'. CDS openly speaking of overstretch, cancelled leave, low morale, extremely concerned, etc etc. Standing next to him was an incredulous and alarmed Hoon who developed a most bizarre stance - arched back, wide-eyes, slight grimace, almost as if he was having something large inserted into 'an orifice'. Hoon then went on to desperately spin the previous comments into some sort of govt approved version with CDS looking on, and looking slightly smug if I'm not mistaken. De-mob happy perhaps?
Story here;
http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/...1120/fire.html
Video should appear here and will be up 'til early Thurs eve;
http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/...021119/c4n.ram
Today's joint news conference with Chief of Defence Staff Admiral Sir Michael Boyce and Defence secretary Geoff Hoon was 'interesting'. CDS openly speaking of overstretch, cancelled leave, low morale, extremely concerned, etc etc. Standing next to him was an incredulous and alarmed Hoon who developed a most bizarre stance - arched back, wide-eyes, slight grimace, almost as if he was having something large inserted into 'an orifice'. Hoon then went on to desperately spin the previous comments into some sort of govt approved version with CDS looking on, and looking slightly smug if I'm not mistaken. De-mob happy perhaps?
Story here;
http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/...1120/fire.html
Video should appear here and will be up 'til early Thurs eve;
http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/...021119/c4n.ram
Last edited by Smoketoomuch; 20th Nov 2002 at 19:14.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
BBC Report:
Wednesday, 20 November, 2002
Forces chief issues strike warning
A continuing strike by UK firefighters would seriously undermine any possible military action against Iraq, according to the country's most senior military chief. In a blunt warning, Sir Michael Boyce said he was "extremely concerned" by the impact on military effectiveness of having 19,000 troops on stand-by for firefighting.
The comments in a news conference came as it emerged there would be no talks between the firefighters' union and employers on Wednesday.
In the House of Commons, Prime Minister Tony Blair moved to play down the suggestion troops were too over-stretched. Mr Blair stressed Sir Michael had also said the armed forces would still be able to respond to any military requirements from the government. The defence chief was pointing out troops "perfectly obviously" could not be engaged in other duties if they were firefighting, said Mr Blair.
The executive of the Fire Brigades Union (FBU) has decided the employers have not come up with a significantly different offer and declined to meet them. The employers said they would work through the night to try to improve the package on the table so talks could resume on Thursday, but warned there would be no more money. An eight-day stoppage is due to start on Friday.
Sir Michael insisted he would not send troops to strike break by crossing FBU picket lines but would expect the police to carry out that sort of operation. "The armed forces should not cross picket lines," he said. Downing Street later said troops would not cross picket lines to reach firefighting equipment, even under a police escort.
Standing alongside Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon, Sir Michael said: "I am extremely concerned about the military effectiveness of our armed forces...
"I do not have a box of 19,000 standing by for such duties so they must come from operational duties. So they are not doing their task for training for whatever eventuality may come in the future."
Sir Michael spoke of the "morale and motivation problem" of sending soldiers straight from operations in areas like Bosnia and straight into firefighting duties. That meant they were not being allowed holidays with their families or to engage in other training for future military operations, such as against Saddam Hussein.
Mr Hoon was forced to explain, stressing the government had always said it was for civilian authorities to cross picket lines to get at red fire engines if there was a continuing strike. The defence secretary also insisted the UK was prepared for a possible Iraq war and able to offer a "credible threat" of force against Saddam Hussein.
Sir Michael's comments, however, have suggested significant differences between the military and the government over the handling of a continuing strike. Ministers have previously signalled that soldiers would be used to cross picket lines but are now having to confirm that is not the case.
The Conservatives said Sir Michael had echoed their view that UK troops had long been over-stretched. Shadow defence secretary Bernard Jenkin said: "Labour has been running the Armed Forces on empty. There is nothing left in the kitty for the unexpected."
At the news conference, Mr Hoon also confirmed America had asked if the UK would provide troops for a possible Iraq war.
Recent attacks on UK planes patrolling no-fly zones would affect judgements on whether Saddam Hussein was keeping to UN resolutions, he said.
"It's clearly relevant that his forces should attack our forces carrying out humanitarian tasks in the no-fly zone," said Mr Hoon. "And certainly I agree that it is important that we recognise that this is an aggressive, belligerent state as far as our aircraft are concerned. That will go to be part of the picture the Security Council discusses but it would be a matter for the Security Council to discuss once all the evidence had been amassed."
Forces chief issues strike warning
A continuing strike by UK firefighters would seriously undermine any possible military action against Iraq, according to the country's most senior military chief. In a blunt warning, Sir Michael Boyce said he was "extremely concerned" by the impact on military effectiveness of having 19,000 troops on stand-by for firefighting.
The comments in a news conference came as it emerged there would be no talks between the firefighters' union and employers on Wednesday.
In the House of Commons, Prime Minister Tony Blair moved to play down the suggestion troops were too over-stretched. Mr Blair stressed Sir Michael had also said the armed forces would still be able to respond to any military requirements from the government. The defence chief was pointing out troops "perfectly obviously" could not be engaged in other duties if they were firefighting, said Mr Blair.
The executive of the Fire Brigades Union (FBU) has decided the employers have not come up with a significantly different offer and declined to meet them. The employers said they would work through the night to try to improve the package on the table so talks could resume on Thursday, but warned there would be no more money. An eight-day stoppage is due to start on Friday.
Sir Michael insisted he would not send troops to strike break by crossing FBU picket lines but would expect the police to carry out that sort of operation. "The armed forces should not cross picket lines," he said. Downing Street later said troops would not cross picket lines to reach firefighting equipment, even under a police escort.
Standing alongside Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon, Sir Michael said: "I am extremely concerned about the military effectiveness of our armed forces...
"I do not have a box of 19,000 standing by for such duties so they must come from operational duties. So they are not doing their task for training for whatever eventuality may come in the future."
Sir Michael spoke of the "morale and motivation problem" of sending soldiers straight from operations in areas like Bosnia and straight into firefighting duties. That meant they were not being allowed holidays with their families or to engage in other training for future military operations, such as against Saddam Hussein.
Mr Hoon was forced to explain, stressing the government had always said it was for civilian authorities to cross picket lines to get at red fire engines if there was a continuing strike. The defence secretary also insisted the UK was prepared for a possible Iraq war and able to offer a "credible threat" of force against Saddam Hussein.
Sir Michael's comments, however, have suggested significant differences between the military and the government over the handling of a continuing strike. Ministers have previously signalled that soldiers would be used to cross picket lines but are now having to confirm that is not the case.
The Conservatives said Sir Michael had echoed their view that UK troops had long been over-stretched. Shadow defence secretary Bernard Jenkin said: "Labour has been running the Armed Forces on empty. There is nothing left in the kitty for the unexpected."
At the news conference, Mr Hoon also confirmed America had asked if the UK would provide troops for a possible Iraq war.
Recent attacks on UK planes patrolling no-fly zones would affect judgements on whether Saddam Hussein was keeping to UN resolutions, he said.
"It's clearly relevant that his forces should attack our forces carrying out humanitarian tasks in the no-fly zone," said Mr Hoon. "And certainly I agree that it is important that we recognise that this is an aggressive, belligerent state as far as our aircraft are concerned. That will go to be part of the picture the Security Council discusses but it would be a matter for the Security Council to discuss once all the evidence had been amassed."
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Time for a coup d'etat me thinks!
"No Roman army has entered the capital for a 100 years."
Is it time we thought about doing it? As bad as it sounds until we get a real bloody defeat with 'x' quantity of body bags coming home NOBODY will sit up and pay attention apart from that which comes out of the mouths of this defunct government.
"No Roman army has entered the capital for a 100 years."
Is it time we thought about doing it? As bad as it sounds until we get a real bloody defeat with 'x' quantity of body bags coming home NOBODY will sit up and pay attention apart from that which comes out of the mouths of this defunct government.
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Duck Dogers,
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
The fact is that we have been involved in many conflicts fairly recently (I have been involved in Falklands, Gulf, Bosnia, Kosova, Afghanistan myself)
With the exception of a relatively 'few' losses we have all managed and coped, and won!
Sadly, until we do take a good kicking and sustain sever losses, then the perception of the government and probably the public, is that the armed forces 'will win' because we always win!
God help us all if Saddam starts to play real dirty, I fear many of us will be returning home in your plastic bags.
Come on Tony, open your eyes for Christs sake! this is not a game Sir. This is for real, and the Top Military Man is telling you Louad and Clear!!!!!
The Swinging Monkey
More Rope Caruthers!
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
The fact is that we have been involved in many conflicts fairly recently (I have been involved in Falklands, Gulf, Bosnia, Kosova, Afghanistan myself)
With the exception of a relatively 'few' losses we have all managed and coped, and won!
Sadly, until we do take a good kicking and sustain sever losses, then the perception of the government and probably the public, is that the armed forces 'will win' because we always win!
God help us all if Saddam starts to play real dirty, I fear many of us will be returning home in your plastic bags.
Come on Tony, open your eyes for Christs sake! this is not a game Sir. This is for real, and the Top Military Man is telling you Louad and Clear!!!!!
The Swinging Monkey
More Rope Caruthers!
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CDSvWho
What a lovely interview! Hectorusrex says 'what a shame he is leaving...' real question is 'why is he leaving?'
Fact is that the armed forces are being expected to achieve everything and anything with the lowest numbers of personnel in living memory. Probably would have been fine in a steady state situation like the cold war but these days is it fine?
I wonder if Sir M had an interview without coffee after the press conference! Let's hope he continues to stand up for ordinary servicemen and women in his remaining time in post.....no one else is better placed.
Fact is that the armed forces are being expected to achieve everything and anything with the lowest numbers of personnel in living memory. Probably would have been fine in a steady state situation like the cold war but these days is it fine?
I wonder if Sir M had an interview without coffee after the press conference! Let's hope he continues to stand up for ordinary servicemen and women in his remaining time in post.....no one else is better placed.
I thought the relative calibre of the two men was the really telling aspect of the session. CDS looking confident, speaking clearly and getting straight to the heart of the matter with some simple truths. Hoon looking shifty, clearly not listening and obviously well out of his depth. I thought CDS was a typical product of our professional armed forces, whilst Hoon was a typical product of this government.
Still cant say I support a coup, even though most sgts I know could do a better job than that arse Blair.
Still cant say I support a coup, even though most sgts I know could do a better job than that arse Blair.
I quite like the idea that in the end CDS works for the Queen and so does Hoon. A much healthier arrangement than for Hoon to be CDS's immediate boss and employer as yesterdays press conference illustrated.
You could actually see Hoon demonstrate the dictionary definition of "squirm".
WWW
You could actually see Hoon demonstrate the dictionary definition of "squirm".
WWW
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Im just being a realists (or a cynic depending on your point of view). Lets face it the Iraqi squaddies are going to surrender as soon as their out of sight of Sadams gestapo. An easy 75% of them probably fought in the last war and dont want to be on the receiving end of that again. America doesnt need us, not with all the toys that they have. Besides that the Americans that ive talked to would rather go it alone without anyone else involved.
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Dear Mr Civilian,
your comments are an insult to those servicemen and women who by their very actions enable you to make such sad and unwarranted remarks.
I have served in several conflicts, Falklands, Gulf war, Bosnia, Kosovo and more recently Afghanistan. Yes, casualties are much less than they used to be, but flag-waving?
If you think that flying at 50' over a featureless desert at night, with a few thousand pounds of HE under your belly is 'flag waving' or spending 16 hours at 40,000' in an AWACS is 'flag waving' you are patently an ignorant and stupid person.
Do us all a favour, crawl back under your little stone and get a life.
I am unable to waste any more of my valuable time on you
The Swinging Monkey
'Smithers, kick this civilian in the nuts for me, theres a good chap!!
just read your comment about the Americans prefering to go it alone. Now I know you are a fool. I work directly with US aviators EVERY day, and believe me, they much prefer us to be with them. Why do you think we are still in Afghanistan? 'cos its nice weather or what? you are a fool Sir.
your comments are an insult to those servicemen and women who by their very actions enable you to make such sad and unwarranted remarks.
I have served in several conflicts, Falklands, Gulf war, Bosnia, Kosovo and more recently Afghanistan. Yes, casualties are much less than they used to be, but flag-waving?
If you think that flying at 50' over a featureless desert at night, with a few thousand pounds of HE under your belly is 'flag waving' or spending 16 hours at 40,000' in an AWACS is 'flag waving' you are patently an ignorant and stupid person.
Do us all a favour, crawl back under your little stone and get a life.
I am unable to waste any more of my valuable time on you
The Swinging Monkey
'Smithers, kick this civilian in the nuts for me, theres a good chap!!
just read your comment about the Americans prefering to go it alone. Now I know you are a fool. I work directly with US aviators EVERY day, and believe me, they much prefer us to be with them. Why do you think we are still in Afghanistan? 'cos its nice weather or what? you are a fool Sir.
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The Daily Telegraph has an excellent transcript of the conversation - it mentions that Sir Michael said he had extreme concern, then Bufhoon said - "i didn't hear him say extreme concern - he said extremely concerned instead" - trying to lie and spin your way out of a press conference indeed. One man a low life piece of political trash, the other a man who has devoted his life to the service of his country and stands up for the lads. BZ Sir Michael - the measure of his success though will only become apparent when our dicators start leaking information about him to discredit him - i confidently expect stories to appear soon that he is gay/lesbian/kiddy molestor/satanist/tory voter -with the aim of shooting him down/ You can't humiliate the Government and get away with it these days...
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I dont want to get into a flame war. All im saying is that a certain percentage of americans dont want to goto war alone. Therefore we get involved and maybe others I dont know. Im sure Bush would be just as happy if we sent some ships down there and some doctors instead of a couple of hundred tanks. This is what I meant by fighting a media war.
PS. Well I speak with a couple of american civilians every few days, some of them being ex-military. Well one of them anyway
PS. Well I speak with a couple of american civilians every few days, some of them being ex-military. Well one of them anyway
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Dear Mr Civilian,
Despite saying I wouldn't waste any more of my valuable time with you, I find I now am
Stop trying to dig yourself out of a very big hole.
You said we were simply 'flag waving' and that Sir, in Military terms is 'Bollocks!'
Oh and you speak to some Americans every few days - that must be nice for you Do they like you? I wonder
JimLad,
I like your sentiments, and I fear you will be proved correct. I can just see the headlines now........
'CDS found to be having an affair with black, one-legged homosexual Russian' 'Off with his head demands Bafhoon'
Sir Mike, I am not in your service, but you get my vote every time! Enjoy your retirement
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, get the Admiral a drink!'
Despite saying I wouldn't waste any more of my valuable time with you, I find I now am
Stop trying to dig yourself out of a very big hole.
You said we were simply 'flag waving' and that Sir, in Military terms is 'Bollocks!'
Oh and you speak to some Americans every few days - that must be nice for you
Do they like you? I wonder JimLad,
I like your sentiments, and I fear you will be proved correct. I can just see the headlines now........
'CDS found to be having an affair with black, one-legged homosexual Russian' 'Off with his head demands Bafhoon'
Sir Mike, I am not in your service, but you get my vote every time! Enjoy your retirement
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, get the Admiral a drink!'
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Mr Civilian,
Yes, now let me see, how did it go...um ah yes.....
NO BRAIN - NO PAIN!
Guess that just about sums you up
Mind you don't hurt yourself with that paper clip old boy!
Night night
Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, hit this civilian again, harder!'
Yes, now let me see, how did it go...um ah yes.....
NO BRAIN - NO PAIN!
Guess that just about sums you up
Mind you don't hurt yourself with that paper clip old boy!
Night night
Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, hit this civilian again, harder!'
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Oi Civvie!
Off to fight a media war, are we? Well the last time I looked, the worst thing you could get from The Sun was a nasty paper cut. Headlines don't kill people but SAMs, AAA, artillery, tanks, SSMs and CBW do! When we are out in the desert and the casualties begin (god forbid), I dare you say "It's only a media war"
Get back in your box you ignorant fool.
CV
Off to fight a media war, are we? Well the last time I looked, the worst thing you could get from The Sun was a nasty paper cut. Headlines don't kill people but SAMs, AAA, artillery, tanks, SSMs and CBW do! When we are out in the desert and the casualties begin (god forbid), I dare you say "It's only a media war"
Get back in your box you ignorant fool.
CV
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A Civilian
Unfortunately we in our distinguished profession have to defend the likes of people like yourself. I for one would be quite happy to see al Qaeda commit an act of aggression here in the UK against people like your, only for the reason of awakening you from the pathetic, 9-5, tree-huggy existance that you live and open your eyes to the real world!
You see Saddam is one of the few in the world who still upholds traditional realist values and has on many occaisions exhibited those Laws of Nature as laid down by Thomas Hobbes in his book 'The Leviathan'. Namely Law 1) that people pursue only their own self-interest, and 4) the natural condition of war. You see despite the changes the International System has endured over the last decade or so nothing has changed.
As for your comment blow;
"America doesnt need us, not with all the toys that they have"
This i'm afraid is not so, from first hand experience i suggest you look at the RAF contribution to Op NORTHERN WATCH enforcing UNSCR 688, then to the recent air ops over afghanistan in support of Op ENDURING FREEDOM where we provided ESSENTIAL AAR to not only the USN, USMC, FAF and Navy as well as our own assets!
At the end of the day you need people like swining monkey and i because it is people like YOU who would hide behind others to save his own behind!!
I leave you with another excert from The Leviathan and that popular TV series called The Simpsons. Enjoy the very Freedom that my colleagues and i provide for you!!!!
"Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man. For war consisteth not in battle only, or the act of fighting, but in a tract of time, wherein the will to contend by battle is sufficiently known: and therefore the notion of time is to be considered in the nature of war, as it is in the nature of weather. For as the nature of foul weather lieth not in a shower or two of rain, but in an inclination thereto of many days together: so the nature of war consisteth not in actual fighting, but in the known disposition thereto during all the time there is no assurance to the contrary. All other time is peace. "
and
"Smithers, unleash the hounds!"
Unfortunately we in our distinguished profession have to defend the likes of people like yourself. I for one would be quite happy to see al Qaeda commit an act of aggression here in the UK against people like your, only for the reason of awakening you from the pathetic, 9-5, tree-huggy existance that you live and open your eyes to the real world!
You see Saddam is one of the few in the world who still upholds traditional realist values and has on many occaisions exhibited those Laws of Nature as laid down by Thomas Hobbes in his book 'The Leviathan'. Namely Law 1) that people pursue only their own self-interest, and 4) the natural condition of war. You see despite the changes the International System has endured over the last decade or so nothing has changed.
As for your comment blow;
"America doesnt need us, not with all the toys that they have"
This i'm afraid is not so, from first hand experience i suggest you look at the RAF contribution to Op NORTHERN WATCH enforcing UNSCR 688, then to the recent air ops over afghanistan in support of Op ENDURING FREEDOM where we provided ESSENTIAL AAR to not only the USN, USMC, FAF and Navy as well as our own assets!
At the end of the day you need people like swining monkey and i because it is people like YOU who would hide behind others to save his own behind!!
I leave you with another excert from The Leviathan and that popular TV series called The Simpsons. Enjoy the very Freedom that my colleagues and i provide for you!!!!
"Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man. For war consisteth not in battle only, or the act of fighting, but in a tract of time, wherein the will to contend by battle is sufficiently known: and therefore the notion of time is to be considered in the nature of war, as it is in the nature of weather. For as the nature of foul weather lieth not in a shower or two of rain, but in an inclination thereto of many days together: so the nature of war consisteth not in actual fighting, but in the known disposition thereto during all the time there is no assurance to the contrary. All other time is peace. "
and
"Smithers, unleash the hounds!"
