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Recognition of UK Military qualifications

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Recognition of UK Military qualifications

Old 7th Jun 2024, 21:21
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Originally Posted by Mogwi
There used to be an Air Support Command Exemption, which allowed the issue of an ATPL as long as you did a flight test on a civvy type and passed Aviation Law. That was lost some time ago though, but not before It got me my (never used) ATPL(H) in 1973 for the cost of a bottle of decent malt for Taff W.

Mog
I remember that, and the story of a VC-10 pilot phoning the CAA to ask for his flight test (in a Cessna 150), set for the following week, to be postponed. The lady on the phone said this was very inconvenient and demanded to know the reason.

"I am flying the Queen to Canada" he replied...
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 08:59
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Originally Posted by MPN11
I don't see a Mil ATCO licence reading across to Civ ATC.

Might work for an HGV driver, though.
Beat me to it!
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 09:23
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In my day, mil HGV licences were civilian licences. Mine came to Germany all the way from Swansea!

CG
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 09:45
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Originally Posted by charliegolf
In my day, mil HGV licences were civilian licences. Mine came to Germany all the way from Swansea!

CG
A driving licence is a driving licence - that hasn't changed. The mil used to be allowed to teach people to drive things like HGVs without actually doing a formal test or awarding the licence categories (eg for things like the runway caravan) but that was phased out about 25 years ago.

Military doctors and nurses are "real" doctors and nurses - their quals are already recognised.

The ones that always weren't were pilot and ATC, probably to stop the immediate exodus of military personnel to the civilian sector. Whilst there have always been financial incentives for pilots to stay in the service the same isn't true for controllers.

Very often (after return of service) the thing that stopped military controllers moving to NATS (and doubling their salaries) was having to undertake the entire 12-18month long NATS controllers course on minimum wage.

The UK military already has retention problems - whilst making military qualifications comparable to the civilian equivalent might improve the career transition to civilian, I can see it causing a huge retention headache when people with difficult to acquire skills are poached by the civilian sector.
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 11:26
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I seemed to acquire various sets of civilian recognised acronyms, mostly beginning with an M, behind my name by virtue of my various postings and specialisations. They have of course all lapsed since I retired and stopped paying my subs.
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 14:30
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque
Presumably that was for the HC2?

Having managed to find a “gold dust” technical manual and having crammed up for the Puma tech exam (HC1 back then) I was told just before my attempt that the type (equivalent to J variant) was no longer on the U.K. register.
No, the HC1! Never flew the Mk 2. It was on my licence as 330F*. Regrettably I couldn’t do the IR on it as well, (ISTR because it had only one radio and no ADF?), so had to do that on a 135.

* IIRC the RAF Pumas were basically 330B, but with enough mods and bits of RAF specific kit to make it a new variant, which was the 330F?
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 15:55
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There were some big gaps between civil and military aviation training. Mainly the theory side. I had to do a lot of study to gain my 2 CPLs
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 17:08
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Military exemptions are done at the national level, so for the UK the CAA. I guess to get any it would be up to RAF/FAA/AAC to persuade the CAA that their training clears the CAA bar - is there anyone with the energy to do this? Is there any benefit to the CAA to do this?

There are some big gaps in theory (and yes there's a lot of work to pass these exams) but actually there aren't when it comes down to doing the job. The only areas where my knowledge base were positively enhanced were Met theory & practical and knowing that there's a height above which an obstacle needs a red light and another height above which it needs a white one. The most frustrating thing I found while doing my exams was thinking "I'm never ever going to need to know about A,B,C coefficients or how to do a transferred position line fix from an NDB in Iceland". Exams now are very much question bank based.

Are there any exemptions now apart from the hours requirements? (I'm assuming here that a leaving pilot will have the required mix of hours). Way back I got exemption from MCC due C130 time and a freebie RT licence. UPRT exemption? We've recently picked up some ex Mil so maybe I'll ask them what their experiences were (VC10, C17, C130, whatever that Waddo King Air's called)

While I was in the RAF (77-2000) we probably went round this buoy a few times - when I was doing licences it was 'do all the exams time'. It's a massive balls ache but just needs some grit and focus and some clever manipulation of annual training allowance (does that still exist?) and resettlement to soften the blows.

Rgds

dh
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Old 9th Jun 2024, 05:24
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Engineering wise, you would need to drastically alter the pay scale if you gave everyone licences to be comparable with the outside world, to at least a Sqn Leaders / Wing Commanders pay scale and in some cases a Group Captains.

You would then see your retention plunge as a mass exodus took place, such is the shortage of Engineers, we need two licenced Engineers where I work and cannot get hold of them.

The RAF I believe has made some moves to be comparable, dual trades etc.
Ciivilian wise I cover Engines, Airframes, Electrics, Compasses and basic Avionics. ( anything not requiring test sets ) plus C certifying to release aircraft to service and form 4 that allows me to renew the Aircraft’s Certificate of Airworthiness by inspecting and issuing the ARC, though that tends to be held by only one in a Company.

I think legislation wise the MAA are getting to be on par with the equivalent Civilian standards though there would need to be some cross training..

​​​​​…

Last edited by NutLoose; 9th Jun 2024 at 05:42.
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Old 9th Jun 2024, 12:59
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Originally Posted by deltahotel
Military exemptions are done at the national level, so for the UK the CAA. I guess to get any it would be up to RAF/FAA/AAC to persuade the CAA that their training clears the CAA bar - is there anyone with the energy to do this? Is there any benefit to the CAA to do this?

There are some big gaps in theory (and yes there's a lot of work to pass these exams) but actually there aren't when it comes down to doing the job. The only areas where my knowledge base were positively enhanced were Met theory & practical and knowing that there's a height above which an obstacle needs a red light and another height above which it needs a white one. The most frustrating thing I found while doing my exams was thinking "I'm never ever going to need to know about A,B,C coefficients or how to do a transferred position line fix from an NDB in Iceland". Exams now are very much question bank based.

Are there any exemptions now apart from the hours requirements? (I'm assuming here that a leaving pilot will have the required mix of hours). Way back I got exemption from MCC due C130 time and a freebie RT licence. UPRT exemption? We've recently picked up some ex Mil so maybe I'll ask them what their experiences were (VC10, C17, C130, whatever that Waddo King Air's called)

While I was in the RAF (77-2000) we probably went round this buoy a few times - when I was doing licences it was 'do all the exams time'. It's a massive balls ache but just needs some grit and focus and some clever manipulation of annual training allowance (does that still exist?) and resettlement to soften the blows.

Rgds

dh
Correct, you could only really give partial credits for the commercial exams. Military Aircrew don’t really know the Chicago Convention, UK Air Nav Order, the commercial Air OPS stuff, etc… However, in Met, Navigation, RT and Human Factors there are distinct common areas of knowledge. So I think a partial accreditation is the best we can hope for with respect to the 14 ATPL(A) exams. There are credits for flying hours in CAP2254 and also bridging packages from places like Bristol Groundschool.

I always turn it on its head in my mind. Would we allow a B737 Pilot come and jump in a Typhoon, or even a Rivet Joint, without any training? Of course not, so why would there be a full credit the other way?

There is one shining hope for the future when the UKMFTS contract is re-let in 2032/33. If the next provider could use PPL/CPL as a ‘backbone’ to military training, then the military ‘bolt ons’ required are taught in advanced training, then there might be some synergies to be enjoyed and benefitted from by both the Service and the individual. Of course, we’ll probably buy the cheapest system and then moan when it barely covers what we want - like everything in the world, you get what you pay for!
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Old 9th Jun 2024, 13:15
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My military aircraft engineering courses and experience had only time restrictions removed from 5 to 1 year. Had to do.the entire EASA module package of 17 exams for B1.1.
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Old 9th Jun 2024, 13:28
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
Engineering wise, you would need to drastically alter the pay scale if you gave everyone licences to be comparable with the outside world, to at least a Sqn Leaders / Wing Commanders pay scale and in some cases a Group Captains.

You would then see your retention plunge as a mass exodus took place, such is the shortage of Engineers, we need two licenced Engineers where I work and cannot get hold of them.

The RAF I believe has made some moves to be comparable, dual trades etc.
Ciivilian wise I cover Engines, Airframes, Electrics, Compasses and basic Avionics. ( anything not requiring test sets ) plus C certifying to release aircraft to service and form 4 that allows me to renew the Aircraft’s Certificate of Airworthiness by inspecting and issuing the ARC, though that tends to be held by only one in a Company.

I think legislation wise the MAA are getting to be on par with the equivalent Civilian standards though there would need to be some cross training..

​​​​​…
No they are not. The training is nowhere up to.a standard to jump across now like in you day of BCAR section L. I suspect you cannot get engineers as your company will not pay the market rate. It is 70K for line engineers even for pikey companies like the regionals now. My pay is up to 75K in 3 months as well for a one type currency B1 ticket. The boys on Shadow had to go out to industry to be licenced and rated.

Last edited by Diff Tail Shim; 9th Jun 2024 at 14:17.
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Old 9th Jun 2024, 16:34
  #33 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by PlasticCabDriver
No, the HC1! Never flew the Mk 2. It was on my licence as 330F*. Regrettably I couldn’t do the IR on it as well, (ISTR because it had only one radio and no ADF?), so had to do that on a 135.

* IIRC the RAF Pumas were basically 330B, but with enough mods and bits of RAF specific kit to make it a new variant, which was the 330F?
In which case, I was robbed! Eventually managed to gain my CAA licence in 1992.

Even more annoying was that I planned to take my FW licence immediately after the rotary one and the barstewards made me pay for both exam groups again in their entirety. When I enquired if I could take all the required theoretical exams for both licences in the first place by telephone (to save me paying twice) I was given a direct verbal threat that if I chose to take it further they could make it “even more difficult” for me.

It was then that I realised that no one mediates the CAA. If you choose to disagree with them they act as judge, jury and executioner.
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 05:56
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Originally Posted by Diff Tail Shim
No they are not. The training is nowhere up to.a standard to jump across now like in you day of BCAR section L. I suspect you cannot get engineers as your company will not pay the market rate. It is 70K for line engineers even for pikey companies like the regionals now. My pay is up to 75K in 3 months as well for a one type currency B1 ticket. The boys on Shadow had to go out to industry to be licenced and rated.
They are paying the going rate.
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 06:54
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Originally Posted by Ninthace
I think most Veterans would prefer access to an NHS dentist or being able to get a GP appointment rather than £9 knocked off the price of a rail card.
One advantage of being medically discharged is free prescriptions. Oh, and a free 24/7 Oyster card (ie free travel across London). Oh, and no tax on my Service Invalidity Pension and War Disability Payments. And fast track NHS access.

So, as a veteran, I'm OK, Jack.
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 08:01
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The UK military already has retention problems - whilst making military qualifications comparable to the civilian equivalent might improve the career transition to civilian, I can see it causing a huge retention headache when people with difficult to acquire skills are poached by the civilian sector.
In more enlightened times, the CAA / MoD working group evolved the '2000 hr TT of which 1500 PIC' accreditation. The highly valued accreditation had to be earned by time served to reach the target figure, hence it was a retention scheme. Pilots would be roughly in their mid 30s by the time they'd achieved the target.

For a typical ME pilot, the only exam required was Air Law as it was recognised that all other relevant knowledge would have been gained through experience. A Class 1 medical (which in those days could be obtained through the RAF provided that the doc had the relevant approval) was required and you had to take a CAA IRE on an SCT trip to observe the IR elements. Then fill out the paperwork, pay the money and wait for the little green book to arrive.

In my case, having already passed Air Law for my Restricted BCPL/FI, I didn't need to take ANY ATPL exams!

Unfortunately with the arrival of Part-FCL, the RAF shot itself in the foot by failing to continue the scheme. The CAA would have been happy to endorse anything the MoD proposed, but all that was agreed was a woeful shadow of the previous scheme. So there was no point in waiting to gain 2000TT and retention suffered accordingly.....
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 12:34
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Originally Posted by Whenurhappy
One advantage of being medically discharged is free prescriptions. Oh, and a free 24/7 Oyster card (ie free travel across London). Oh, and no tax on my Service Invalidity Pension and War Disability Payments. And fast track NHS access.

So, as a veteran, I'm OK, Jack.
Does it get you up the queue to see your GP or entitle you to an NHS dentist?
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Old 11th Jun 2024, 08:17
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Philosophically I've always had an issue with paying Govt employees (the military, civil servants etc) less than the outside world. The only reason I can think of is "because we can" - and then everyone moans about difficulties of retention, the lack of initiative, the CMA attitudes etc

Oh - we'd actually have to pay more tax............................
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Old 11th Jun 2024, 14:14
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Originally Posted by BEagle
In more enlightened times, the CAA / MoD working group evolved the '2000 hr TT of which 1500 PIC' accreditation. The highly valued accreditation had to be earned by time served to reach the target figure, hence it was a retention scheme. Pilots would be roughly in their mid 30s by the time they'd achieved the target.

For a typical ME pilot, the only exam required was Air Law as it was recognised that all other relevant knowledge would have been gained through experience. A Class 1 medical (which in those days could be obtained through the RAF provided that the doc had the relevant approval) was required and you had to take a CAA IRE on an SCT trip to observe the IR elements. Then fill out the paperwork, pay the money and wait for the little green book to arrive.

In my case, having already passed Air Law for my Restricted BCPL/FI, I didn't need to take ANY ATPL exams!

Unfortunately with the arrival of Part-FCL, the RAF shot itself in the foot by failing to continue the scheme. The CAA would have been happy to endorse anything the MoD proposed, but all that was agreed was a woeful shadow of the previous scheme. So there was no point in waiting to gain 2000TT and retention suffered accordingly.....
Exactly the scheme I did it under as described in #18. Op procedures and bridging exam as well for the RW pukes (albeit the FW version, no RW exam available).

I would also describe it as retention positive. If there’s a basically free licence at the end I’ll stay, if I have to do everything anyway I may as well go now.


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Old 11th Jun 2024, 14:28
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Originally Posted by Ninthace
Does it get you up the queue to see your GP or entitle you to an NHS dentist?
My situation is almost identical to Whenurhappy and I've been on the waiting list to see my GP for three weeks.

NEO
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