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‘Stop choosing useless white male pilots’, RAF told

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‘Stop choosing useless white male pilots’, RAF told

Old 1st Jun 2023, 09:53
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FB..."the remark by the good Squadron Leader about useless white male pilots suggests that the RAF have sought the ill-qualified"

I don't think the Sqn Ldr's use of the term "useless" referred to the ability of the white male recruits, but more to the fact that they were useless to him in his task of fulfilling the ridiculous/illegal quotas, thus making his slippery pole even more slippery. Bloke needs to grow a spine.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 09:57
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Originally Posted by Wensleydale
Recruitment back in the 1940s.....


I cannot see a problem with that, bar Inuits in that time period very few would be any other colour in Canada, its just targetting the mass market, similar if you were running a campaign in the Caribbean you would be targetting the local population, so that would be mainly Caribbean men and women on the poster... its all about context, you would not fill a canadian recruitment poster with coloured individuals if next to none lived there.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 09:58
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Originally Posted by alfred_the_great
the problem is we are on the bones of our arse for recruits, so need the recruitment pool to be as large as possible.

at every age below 25, people defining themselves as “white” is below that of all other ethnic groups. If the RAF (or any other service) wants to have people in it then it needs to recruit within those differing ethnic groups. And bluntly it looks a bit lazy if despite the fact white people are the smallest group in that age profile, they make up the preponderance of our recruits.

[source: ONS [url]https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/demographics/age-groups/latest ]

Concurrently, the UK has a sex ratio of c49:51 male:female (although that is skewed by more old ladies, so it’s about 50:50 for <25s). Thus, again, if we do t want to run out of people, we need to recruit as many of both sex as possible.

tl;dr - the RAF and Armed Services can’t survive by just recruiting white males, especially as they’re a pool declining in size.
Not sure where you are getting that statistic from. The chart showing the 'white' group line being under all other ethnic groups up to around the age of 25 is showing the proportion of that ethnic group who are within that age range, I think the clue is the fact that if you add the percentage numbers up for any age range you don't get 100%. Download the CSV file for the raw data and you will see data that does not support your assertion. In all age groups the number of people identifying as white is in the millions, and there isn't a single minority ethnic group that even gets close to a million, the closest is age group 18-24 where 587990 people identify as asian, but in this group 3763395 people identify as white. Even if you add the ethnic minority groups up (for this age range the total would be 1067855) you don't get close to the number of people identifying as white. The data is quite clear when you look at the numbers, white people are in the overwhelming majority of all age ranges, quite drastically so in fact!

I pray that the people in the RAF working on recruitment have a better handle on interpreting statistical information than you do, but something tells me they are also manipulating the data into funny graphs that support their bonkers policies.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 10:06
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Originally Posted by alfred_the_great
the RAF and Armed Services can’t survive by just recruiting white males, especially as they’re a pool declining in size.
Maybe not, but to exclude those that are, simply because they are white and when they cannot get coloured individuals and or women through the door, is diminishing the pool even further, at least if you took in the white recruits you might be attaining closer to your target recruitment numbers regardless of sex or colour... it is barking mad to exclude them.
Personally having targets in any way, shape or form based on colour or sex is just ludicrous, it should at the end of the day be simply based on attaining the needed numbers and recruiting the best from those people. I would rather have an intelligent skilled motivated individual standing next to me than someone who is less than ideal, but is simply recruited to fill some woke adgenda while better candidates are overlooked.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 10:13
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Originally Posted by m0nkfish
Not sure where you are getting that statistic from. The chart showing the 'white' group line being under all other ethnic groups up to around the age of 25 is showing the proportion of that ethnic group who are within that age range, I think the clue is the fact that if you add the percentage numbers up for any age range you don't get 100%.
Note also that the 'White' line closely tracks the 'All' line across all age groups. ie All the population is white to a close approximation.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 10:30
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Originally Posted by m0nkfish
I think define the problem first, then identify a solution. If the military is just not seen as a good cultural fit for some minority groups then one could ask if a problem actually exists. For the record, I think a problem exists if an individual wants to join an organisation but finds they are treated differently and selection is made more difficult because of either their gender, religion or race.

If a lot of minority group candidates are not making the grade because they are either lacking in aptitude or academic ability then this is a problem that is not going to be solved by the RAF without recourse to racist recruitment policies. The problem should be passed back to Government who need to engage schools and colleges to undertake a similar process to identify where these groups are being disadvantaged.
My view with the lack of recruits is the whole, and I’m sorry to have to say it, Old Boys Club attitude in the military. We all know that the RAF are a white middle class organisation and you can’t change 100 years of history overnight or without causing headlines.

We have a 15 year old girl, she’s bright, works hard at school and is in the air cadets and her aim was to go to the RAF as a pilot and we give her as much encouragement as we can. BUT she lost all interest when a Corporal on the Typhoon display team said to her last year “ You’ll never fly with the RAF as you’re a girl”

Anybody with the ability should be encouraged to apply and not be penalised by Sex, Colour or Gender but they shouldn’t be given any special treatment and there should be a level playing field for them all. This isn’t the 40s or even the 80s, times have changed and people have to really get over the prejudices of the past and move on.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 10:37
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Originally Posted by Ken Scott

A bunch of ‘useless white male pilots’ waiting to scramble against the Luftwaffe, circa 1940….
One of the famous Fox News photo's taken at Hawkinge on 29th July 1940, with B flight of 32 Sqn.
L to R, FO Rupert Smythe (wounded in action 24.8.40), PO Keith Gillman (KIA 25.8.40), PO John Proctor, FO Pete Brothers, PO Doug Grice (wounded in action 15.8.40), FO Peter Gardner (POW 11.7.41) & FO Alan Eckford.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 10:44
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GSA

Originally Posted by gsa
My view with the lack of recruits is the whole, and I’m sorry to have to say it, Old Boys Club attitude in the military. We all know that the RAF are a white middle class organisation and you can’t change 100 years of history overnight or without causing headlines.

We have a 15 year old girl, she’s bright, works hard at school and is in the air cadets and her aim was to go to the RAF as a pilot and we give her as much encouragement as we can. BUT she lost all interest when a Corporal on the Typhoon display team said to her last year “ You’ll never fly with the RAF as you’re a girl”

Anybody with the ability should be encouraged to apply and not be penalised by Sex, Colour or Gender but they shouldn’t be given any special treatment and there should be a level playing field for them all. This isn’t the 40s or even the 80s, times have changed and people have to really get over the prejudices of the past and move on.
The story of your daughter is desperately sad and the Corporal in question is an idiot who has no idea what they were taking about.

I can relate a similar story though. I was on holiday with my family when I was 15 (I’m a white male by the way). I happened to mention to a woman at the pool that I wanted to be an RAF fighter pilot. She said “that’ll never happen, you have to know someone to get in don’t you?”. For a brief moment I was hugely deflated until my parents pointed out she was talking crap.

Fast forward a few years and I was successful in my quest.

I hope your daughter can be persuaded to change her mind but, I’m sorry to say, if she let one idiot Corporal change her mind maybe she wasn’t so serious in the first place. It takes 100% commitment to be successful regardless of gender/ethnicity etc.

BV
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 11:14
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
The story of your daughter is desperately sad and the Corporal in question is an idiot who has no idea what they were taking about.
And he was on the display team?! And what's the point of the display team?
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 11:34
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Originally Posted by ORAC
Hmm, you definitely can, they wrote the specification around the 95% percentile European male weight and physical dimensions.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque..._passthrough=1

US paper, but the principle applies..

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/36735983.pdf
There has to be a set of practical design limits within the specification, surely.
A further problem is the data used for mid-70's specs is that the population has grown !
Especially in the context of well-fed first-world countries we export our aeroplanes to.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 11:36
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Originally Posted by ORAC
Hmm, you definitely can, they wrote the specification around the 95% percentile European male weight and physical dimensions.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque..._passthrough=1

US paper, but the principle applies..

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/36735983.pdf
Gosh, so a European country whose pilot base was mostly male decided to write the specifications for ejection seats around the dimensions of European males? You must have been shocked to find that out.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 11:37
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Should know better.

You are absolutely correct about the public role of display team personnel. That Corporal needs to find another job.

I have related this story before as well but a few years ago I was showing some ATC cadets around our OCU building. One of the female cadets asked if girls could be fighter pilots. Before I could answer the (female) Flt Lt (VR) Officer with them said “of course not”. I told her she was wrong and she replied with “but it’s not encouraged is it?”. After I pointed out that she was again incorrect she acted like I had no idea what I was talking about. I quietly advised her male colleague to have a quiet word with her later.

BV
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 11:41
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Back to the thread

My other thought on this thorny diversity issue is that maybe some people need to stop fighting a fight on behalf of the perceived ‘victims’ if they haven’t asked them to fight on their behalf. For instance, have the BAME communities themselves complained about lack of representation in the UK military? If not, surely it is acceptable just to let them know they are welcome to apply and will be treated as any other applicant.

BV
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 12:17
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Originally Posted by osbo
FB..."the remark by the good Squadron Leader about useless white male pilots suggests that the RAF have sought the ill-qualified"

I don't think the Sqn Ldr's use of the term "useless" referred to the ability of the white male recruits, but more to the fact that they were useless to him in his task of fulfilling the ridiculous/illegal quotas, thus making his slippery pole even more slippery. Bloke needs to grow a spine.
Then could he/she/they not compose their wording to appear a tiny wee bit less ambiguous?

FB
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 12:27
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
I cannot see a problem with that
...other than it's saying they'll be limited to a support role

What's interesting (and I'm sure everyone noticed this) is that her uniform buttons left-over-right, even though it's obviously tailored for a woman.


I do tend to agree that the original statement has more than one meaning and could indeed suggest that a policy geared towards sending white males regardless of their aptitude made the recruitment job more difficult
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 12:49
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It strikes my as odd that this 'agenda' is being by a 'mere' S/L Or is he the sacrificial lamb ? When I did the OASC PSO course It was made clear to us that they did not formulate the policies but merely carried them out.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 12:58
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What is wrong with "being the best qualified/aptitude for the job?"
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 13:29
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Those of us who remember, fondly or not , their own service careers should remember that it appears that the UK armed forces have changed beyond recognition since ‘our day’.

I suppose it all goes back to ‘Options for Change’ but when I went back to RAFC Cranwell, just before COVID struck, I found it a ghostly place full of empty corridors with barely a uniform in sight. A trip to Brize Norton gave a similar impression - a busier place but now heavily civilianised.

I sincerely hope that the front line ethos has not changed but rather like the long list of well beloved bases which have long disappeared, I suspect the insidious effect of political correctness has altered the Royal Air Force beyond both recognition and redemption.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 13:38
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
The story of your daughter is desperately sad and the Corporal in question is an idiot who has no idea what they were taking about.
There are still men in this World with egos, who seem to think that only 'real' men can fly big or fast jets, and for whom the thought of females or others joining their 'gang' is anathema.

I hope your daughter can be persuaded to change her mind but, I’m sorry to say, if she let one idiot Corporal change her mind maybe she wasn’t so serious in the first place. It takes 100% commitment to be successful regardless of gender/ethnicity etc.

BV
Easy to say unless it happens to you. Without knowing otherwise, when someone in authority tells you 'no, not possible'; are you likely to continue, or are you more likely to walk away from what might seem to have overtones of old fashioned Golf Clubs and Cricket Clubs etc, and take your talent elsewhere? Becoming a fast jet pilot must be hard enough without people around you being against you, either openly or passive-agressively.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 13:40
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
So the solution is?
Whenever the word solution is used . Caution .
I listened to an off the cuff lunch speech given by a political scientist where he used the term final solution five times with regards to an inter generational issue of poverty entrapment of a particular tribal group . The context he was using the word was meant to convey urgency and frustration at the lack of progress . After the Lunch I asked him if he thought anyone else heard him use the term “ Final Solution “ he was shocked that he had used it in an innocent way not in the extremist way it can be used . If the press at the chamber of commerce had of been listening it might have ended his political career . It was never mentioned again . Just remember it is often not what we say , but how is heard . Be careful using some words as sometimes unintentional harm can be done where no insult or injury was meant . Some folks hear what they want to hear and feign offence as used in cry bullying tactics .
The beauty of the English language is that it does allow for explicit expression of offence and those nuanced misunderstandings can quickly be remedied by the correct invective expletives.
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