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‘Stop choosing useless white male pilots’, RAF told

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‘Stop choosing useless white male pilots’, RAF told

Old 31st May 2023, 23:07
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Originally Posted by Uplinker
Perhaps the male RAF candidates should say they identify as female......that would get round the problem perhaps?

I'll get my coat.......
Does that mean you will live in the female block?

Which brings up a point, have they got enough female blocks to house a 40% female manning? Or will they need to have a mass urinal removal and pie heater installation phase to convert accommodation?
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 00:29
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
female manning

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Old 1st Jun 2023, 01:24
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
As my scottish wife says to me in discussions on these matters - "You're a middle-class, 6ft white male - what the f*ck have you got to worry about?"
Racism and misogyny being replaced by racism and misandry?
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 02:47
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Except for the Ladies there was a time when anyone could serve as aircrew and no one bothered about your sexual proclivities.



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Old 1st Jun 2023, 05:59
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Originally Posted by Roland Pulfrew
Maybe it has. Maybe that’s why the RAF has successful for the last 105 years. By selecting the best person for the job based on the selection processes of the time regardless of race or sex (albeit female pilots have only been allowed for the last 30 years).
as long as you were the size and shape of an 18 year old boy so you could fit in an ejection seat.

amazingly, those who were the best fit were… other 18 year old boys!

or as long as you didn’t fancy having sex with someone who had the same genitalia as you.

so not so much “best person for the job”, really…
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 06:31
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Recruitment back in the 1940s.....


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Old 1st Jun 2023, 07:16
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
Hopefully we'd all agree with that, but how do we get there? What we've been doing up to now doesn't seem to have worked.
A good friend of mine retired from the Fire Service recently after 30 years. For most of that time he says that the Service went through hoops to recruit more BAME firefighters, but no scheme was successful. The problem was that the Fire Service was not seen as a ‘good’ career, unlike doctor, lawyer, pharmacist etc. I suspect the same applies for the military - this is as much about the culture of certain communities as anything else. You can lead a horse to water…
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 07:24
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Originally Posted by tdracer
Treating someone differently because of their race or the color their skin is the very definition of racism.
Presumably we all agree that racism is a bad thing.
You don't fix a bad thing by implementing more of it.
So the solution is?
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 07:26
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Originally Posted by alfred_the_great
as long as you were the size and shape of an 18 year old boy so you could fit in an ejection seat.

amazingly, those who were the best fit were… other 18 year old boys!
Spurious argument, you cannot blame the RAF for ejection seat (and their parachute) design, something that has evolved over time. Many 18 year old boys were outside seat limits for being too tall, or too short, or too light.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 07:53
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Or needing spectacles; STOP EYESIGHT DISCRIMINATION! 👿
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 07:59
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There are 4 races in the world: Negroids, Caucasoids, Mongoloids, Australoids and there are 22 subgroups under these 4 human races and there are 6 gender identities; not just male/female so its going to be quite a job to satisfy everyone
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 08:07
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Spurious argument, you cannot blame the RAF for ejection seat (and their parachute) design, something that has evolved over time. Many 18 year old boys were outside seat limits for being too tall, or too short, or too light.
Hmm, you definitely can, they wrote the specification around the 95% percentile European male weight and physical dimensions.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque..._passthrough=1

US paper, but the principle applies..

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/36735983.pdf
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 08:13
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Originally Posted by snapper41
A good friend of mine retired from the Fire Service recently after 30 years. For most of that time he says that the Service went through hoops to recruit more BAME firefighters, but no scheme was successful. The problem was that the Fire Service was not seen as a ‘good’ career, unlike doctor, lawyer, pharmacist etc. I suspect the same applies for the military - this is as much about the culture of certain communities as anything else. You can lead a horse to water…
Community culture.
Is there an English one (or anglo saxon)
If not, why cant I have one?
Racist, thats what it is.
i know my rights.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 08:29
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Applicants seeking to join RAF described as 'useless white male pilots' in leaked emails (msn.com)

Unbelievable.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 08:35
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I have to say as a supporter of Diversity & Inclusion my heart hits the floor when I see some idiot come out with remarks such as "useless white male pilots".

It's completely brainless, wrong and absolutely damaging to the idea of change



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Old 1st Jun 2023, 08:44
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I've not read through the thread, so may posts in such a short space of time. I can't make any excuses for myself, I'm white and male, oh and for all its worth belong to the straight camp. However, I didn't even apply for aircrew because my academic qualifications du jour precluded such a waste of time. However, the remark by the good Squadron Leader about useless white male pilots suggests that the RAF have sought the ill-qualified, perhaps I was in with a chance after all, rather than pick from the Creme de la Creme of everyone outside the white male Barrel. More importantly, all this broadening of the recruitment pool, has a by-product goal. That is to harmonise one and all, find common purpose and aspiration etc. This is what I thought the actual no nonsense side of diversity and woke thinking was supposed to be about. As I have long, otherwise, suspected, it is instead about creating division and trying to reverse what many on the diversity side believe to be white male privilege. Hence all the divisive acrimony from people like this Squadron Leader. Qualifications are one thing, thinking is something else, as we are quickly finding out from the country's Universities. One more point, John Nichol was on the Nick Ferrari show on LBC some weeks back, he was promoting his new book about the Dambusters. At one stage before going off air, John rightly referred to the brave men of 617 during the war. Afterwards, Nick, who has a fetish about referencing men and women both, in connection with any and every field of endeavour, sought to correct what John said, with 'surely the men and the women of 617'. Then got his researcher to fact check, whether or not women flew as operational aircrew on the Dams raid.

FB
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 08:52
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Originally Posted by Roland Pulfrew
Spurious argument, you cannot blame the RAF for ejection seat (and their parachute) design, something that has evolved over time. Many 18 year old boys were outside seat limits for being too tall, or too short, or too light.
the seats and cockpits were also not designed to suit the 5-95%ile female for reach, thigh length, pelvis width or weight. All of those things were entirely within the gift of the RAF and RN to direct.

indeed, even though the F35 was designed around the 5-95%ile, basic FJ training aircraft weren’t (until recently) so it didn’t even help.

it’s unthinking policies like that that stop lots of women being even able to start to compete to be FJ pilots.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 09:04
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
So the solution is?
I think define the problem first, then identify a solution. If the military is just not seen as a good cultural fit for some minority groups then one could ask if a problem actually exists. For the record, I think a problem exists if an individual wants to join an organisation but finds they are treated differently and selection is made more difficult because of either their gender, religion or race.

If a lot of minority group candidates are not making the grade because they are either lacking in aptitude or academic ability then this is a problem that is not going to be solved by the RAF without recourse to racist recruitment policies. The problem should be passed back to Government who need to engage schools and colleges to undertake a similar process to identify where these groups are being disadvantaged.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 09:32
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Originally Posted by m0nkfish
I think define the problem first, then identify a solution. If the military is just not seen as a good cultural fit for some minority groups then one could ask if a problem actually exists. For the record, I think a problem exists if an individual wants to join an organisation but finds they are treated differently and selection is made more difficult because of either their gender, religion or race.

If a lot of minority group candidates are not making the grade because they are either lacking in aptitude or academic ability then this is a problem that is not going to be solved by the RAF without recourse to racist recruitment policies. The problem should be passed back to Government who need to engage schools and colleges to undertake a similar process to identify where these groups are being disadvantaged.
the problem is we are on the bones of our arse for recruits, so need the recruitment pool to be as large as possible.

at every age below 25, people defining themselves as “white” is below that of all other ethnic groups. If the RAF (or any other service) wants to have people in it then it needs to recruit within those differing ethnic groups. And bluntly it looks a bit lazy if despite the fact white people are the smallest group in that age profile, they make up the preponderance of our recruits.

[source: ONS https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures....-groups/latest ]

Concurrently, the UK has a sex ratio of c49:51 male:female (although that is skewed by more old ladies, so it’s about 50:50 for <25s). Thus, again, if we do t want to run out of people, we need to recruit as many of both sex as possible.

tl;dr - the RAF and Armed Services can’t survive by just recruiting white males, especially as they’re a pool declining in size.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 09:47
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The Chief of the Air Staff twitter account is now blocking people for raising this issue. It really is not a good look for a senior military leader to appear to be unresponsive to criticism.
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