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RAF Chinook pilot jailed for sexual assault

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RAF Chinook pilot jailed for sexual assault

Old 25th Mar 2023, 16:41
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The only thing that touched the inside thighs of the WRAF at St Athan during our training was our pyjamas as they would beg a pair off us as they were the last course to get Hairy Mary’s and at the height of summer tights were the last thing they wanted to wear under them.

I cannot think of one in my time that was assaulted, we worked and played together as one big happy family.
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Old 25th Mar 2023, 17:00
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Perhaps "men behaving badly" is more or less a nasty constant ratio, and we are now much more aware because more and more women have the courage to report it. We had quite senior gropers in the Met Office, but only famous when all participants/ spouses had retired. The wives / daughters dealt with them at the time by pinching and avoidance, and did not tell their men in case [as was likely]. there was bloodshed. It is only in retirement that I heard all the stories.
The big improvement in sanctions has been helped by the ME TOO movement.

9 months inside is totally inadequate, because one purpose of prison is deterrence. He should have been awarded an exemplary maximum.
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Old 25th Mar 2023, 17:08
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Originally Posted by langleybaston
Perhaps "men behaving badly" is more or less a nasty constant ratio, and we are now much more aware because more and more women have the courage to report it. We had quite senior gropers in the Met Office, but only famous when all participants/ spouses had retired. The wives / daughters dealt with them at the time by pinching and avoidance, and did not tell their men in case [as was likely]. there was bloodshed. It is only in retirement that I heard all the stories.
The big improvement in sanctions has been helped by the ME TOO movement.

9 months inside is totally inadequate, because one purpose of prison is deterrence. He should have been awarded an exemplary maximum.
The maximum was probably 2 years according to the guidelines and as I said about anything outside that would need justification, plus deservedly he has lost his career and his family. Nine months will be a reduction for good behaviour inside, but every day will feel like a year as he is a sex offender, lower than the sewers in a prison in their hierarchy.
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Old 25th Mar 2023, 17:46
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Obviously not intended to apply to the services but I once had a fill-in supermarket warehouse job and it was the other way around. More than three or four girls together turned into physical and verbal sexual molestation pack driven by bravado (like unzipping your jeans when they'd ask you to get stock down from a shelf), which didn't really bother me because I'd say: "Alright, keep going." It took the wind out of their sails, they never did, we got on normally after that and they'd find a more frightened 'younger' victim. The male staff certainly wouldn't have tried that stunt on them though.
But that was in the 70s, when even then it was normal to simply avoid well-known homosexual predators (like the scoutmaster in the village I lived in and a nearby Catholic priest) rather than report them for their behaviour.
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Old 25th Mar 2023, 20:47
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Originally Posted by WillNorris81
I know many RAF women who were assaulted, it just wasnít reported in the main. Remember the bar ďgameĒ involving drunk bloke biting a serving womanís backside and hanging on as long as they could? I saw one female aircrew officer walk up to the crowd laughing after another assault of a work colleague and quietly said ď and if this happened to your mother, sister, partner, would it be so funny then?Ē.
she then reported the assault to the RAF police, it never happened again in that mess.
I never saw that game being played in any mess of which was a member, or visited for that matter.
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Old 25th Mar 2023, 21:41
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Originally Posted by Timelord
No, I donít remember. What era was this? Because I can honestly say that in my service, 1972-2000, mostly fast jet, mostly front line, I never witnessed or heard of any such moronic behaviour.

I would add that on my OCTU a fellow cadet was put on review because he had sworn in the hearing of a female cadet. Very different times!
mid to late 80ís through to the end of the 90ís.
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Old 26th Mar 2023, 08:53
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The topic of assaults and sexual harassment came up on a recruiting course I was on in 2013.....mainly as to female applicants perceptions around joining the mil and why they wouldn't. I'd been in over 20 years at this point and opined that it wasn't an issue and I'd never seen it. Most (including me) of the male officers and SNCOs stated they'd never seen any such issue and it wasn't happening.

Every single female officer and SNCO said they'd either been assaulted in some way, been subjected to a lesser unwanted behavior or knew a colleague that had. They made the point that it often wasn't happening where we would see it.....unwanted late night visitors to mess/barrack rooms, unwanted handsy-ness late on at social events, when working alone with the perp, etc, etc....

I'm inclined to believe them, to be honest.
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Old 26th Mar 2023, 11:28
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Oh, I absolutely believe them.
My question is about whether this is a relatively recent aberration or did it always happen and I just missed it?

Last edited by Timelord; 26th Mar 2023 at 12:19. Reason: Spelling
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Old 26th Mar 2023, 12:03
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Originally Posted by downsizer
The topic of assaults and sexual harassment came up on a recruiting course I was on in 2013.....mainly as to female applicants perceptions around joining the mil and why they wouldn't. I'd been in over 20 years at this point and opined that it wasn't an issue and I'd never seen it. Most (including me) of the male officers and SNCOs stated they'd never seen any such issue and it wasn't happening.

Every single female officer and SNCO said they'd either been assaulted in some way, been subjected to a lesser unwanted behavior or knew a colleague that had. They made the point that it often wasn't happening where we would see it.....unwanted late night visitors to mess/barrack rooms, unwanted handsy-ness late on at social events, when working alone with the perp, etc, etc....

I'm inclined to believe them, to be honest.
Spectacular incident at a Ball at Churchill RAF ARMY Mess JHQ c 1995 ..... I missed it but all present witnessed. Wg Cdr dancing with Fl Lts wife was having a mighty grope.
Flt Lt punched him, blood and snot everywhere.
Next day both were off the station. Officially it never happened.
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Old 26th Mar 2023, 12:54
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Originally Posted by langleybaston
Spectacular incident at a Ball at Churchill RAF ARMY Mess JHQ c 1995 ..... I missed it but all present witnessed. Wg Cdr dancing with Fl Lts wife was having a mighty grope.
Flt Lt punched him, blood and snot everywhere.
Next day both were off the station. Officially it never happened.
Habit or tradition?

Jack
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Old 26th Mar 2023, 15:08
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Does anyone suppose that a uniform or some emblem of rank or even of social class guarantees the absence of such misconduct.....because if you do you are grossly misinformed and have no grasp of history or reality.

As to whether it is becoming more of a problem or to what extent it is can be argued but to suggest in one's time it did not happen is pure folly.

The key ingredient is whether the victim considered the conduct to be offensive is the moral standard and whether it violated a Law or Regulation is the legal standard.



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Old 26th Mar 2023, 15:14
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Originally Posted by Timelord
Oh, I absolutely believe them.
My question is about whether this is a relatively recent aberration or did it always happen and I just missed it?
IMO the latter.
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Old 26th Mar 2023, 16:00
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Originally Posted by Timelord
Oh, I absolutely believe them.
My question is about whether this is a relatively recent aberration or did it always happen and I just missed it?
It always happened. What changed (over many, many decades) was the willingness of the services to accept that this was just "boys being boys" and realize it was actually rape, sexual assault and coercion. There was no point in reporting it to a system that was full of individuals who saw no problem with those type of behaviors. Until the Officers and SNCOs in command and leadership positions understood that everybody in their units deserved to be treated with the same respect and professionalism, regardless of gender, this behavior went unchecked. For all the doubters out there, it took years of applying a systematic training approach to professional conduct before the knuckle dragging misogynists became fully ostracized (clearly not in all cases). We might all claim to have been been faultless in this respect, but at some point over the years I'm sure that most of us witnessed acts of aggression and coercion without comment.
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Old 27th Mar 2023, 03:20
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Originally Posted by Two's in
It always happened. What changed (over many, many decades) was the willingness of the services to accept that this was just "boys being boys" and realize it was actually rape, sexual assault and coercion. There was no point in reporting it to a system that was full of individuals who saw no problem with those type of behaviors. Until the Officers and SNCOs in command and leadership positions understood that everybody in their units deserved to be treated with the same respect and professionalism, regardless of gender, this behavior went unchecked. For all the doubters out there, it took years of applying a systematic training approach to professional conduct before the knuckle dragging misogynists became fully ostracized (clearly not in all cases). We might all claim to have been been faultless in this respect, but at some point over the years I'm sure that most of us witnessed acts of aggression and coercion without comment.
And how many of us can say hand on heart that we haven't historically behaved in a way that in modern terms would be beyond the pale?
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Old 27th Mar 2023, 05:53
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One of my staff recently had an altercation with 3 US Navy officers in San Diego. She is German but was visiting a friend there as she was on Business for us in Panama, and flew up for the weekend to see her friend who was an army brat, and had grown up in Germany.
The roving hands started and were re buffed 3 times. She said I will break your arm if you do it again ( she is very much into Karate). Hand came back and consequently broken. Fellow officers stepped in and suffered busted nose. They fled before Shore Patrol and Police arrived.
She was very miffed as she broke a nail !! So it still happens though given screening of officers in Western forces at least you would think they would find this out before they are even allowed to join.

Incidentally my employee is Gay so they were the wrong sex anyway.
Cheers
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Last edited by Mr Mac; 27th Mar 2023 at 06:16.
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Old 27th Mar 2023, 10:28
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Originally Posted by Carl Spaatz
"The court heard that the assault took place as Baylissís victim tried to get away from him WHEN SHE SAW HIS WEDDING RING."

Huh?
From the extended report in the Mail

They were not known to each other when they met on the night out at a military base in the south of England, where Bayliss was celebrating his promotion to Squadron Leader.

After talking, they went outside and began kissing, but at that point the female officer noticed he was wearing a wedding ring and pulled away from him, intending to go back into the mess hall.
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Old 27th Mar 2023, 12:31
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An example of beyond the pale now, but with the kindest of intentions at age 43. LB to 27 y.o. tall, well built, female assistant ......... no others present.

"Oh, I do like that skirt!"

"Sir, I know you dislike me to wear culottes [HOW? I NEVER SAID A WORD FOR MONTHS] but they are practical and comfortable. I am a bit big for skirts!"

We got on like a house on fire usually, and her career prospered, and I stopped commenting on staff clothing.

Dodgy then, very dodgy now, unless I misread the zeitgeist.
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Old 27th Mar 2023, 20:12
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The roving hands started and were re buffed 3 times. She said I will break your arm if you do it again ( she is very much into Karate). Hand came back and consequently broken. Fellow officers stepped in and suffered busted nose.
Outstanding! ​​​​​​​
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Old 27th Mar 2023, 21:27
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Originally Posted by Mr Mac
The roving hands started and were re buffed 3 times. She said I will break your arm if you do it again ( she is very much into Karate). Hand came back and consequently broken. Fellow officers stepped in and suffered busted nose. They fled before Shore Patrol and Police arrived.
Mr Mac
Sounds rather strange as karate is blows rather than holds ( judo etc ) and broken limbs would be unlikely ( former brown belt shotokan ). Strikes would generally be targeted - like bullet impacts - at the main body mass. Broken noses would certainly be within normal criteria.

Last edited by Tartiflette Fan; 27th Mar 2023 at 21:30. Reason: Fix quote
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Old 27th Mar 2023, 21:52
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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
Sounds rather strange as karate is blows rather than holds ( judo etc ) and broken limbs would be unlikely ( former brown belt shotokan ). Strikes would generally be targeted - like bullet impacts - at the main body mass. Broken noses would certainly be within normal criteria.
Thanks for that Mrs Marple
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