Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

"Russian jet collides with US drone over Black Sea"

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

"Russian jet collides with US drone over Black Sea"

Old 15th Mar 2023, 18:40
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The back of beyond
Posts: 2,146
Received 177 Likes on 92 Posts
Originally Posted by uxb99
These Russian jets were obviously harassing the drone. I suspect deliberately trying to bring it down (they succeeded).
What would be the ramifications of downing the drone with gunfire? Result is still the same.
There would likely be no ramifications, beyond an increased NATO fighter presence in the Black Sea I'd imagine. See the Iran shootdown of the Global Hawk in 2019.
melmothtw is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2023, 18:48
  #142 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by pr00ne
What? By what stretch of warped imagination do you work that out? Downed? The US says that it was downed by them following a collision, the Russians say that it came down after maneuvering near the sea. It was in international airspace, there was no combat, and all that Russia seems to have demonstrated is yet another example of their ineffective and incompetent armed forces.

There were drones up there before, there are drones up there now, there will be drones up there tomorrow.
Q"What? By what stretch of warped imagination do you work that out?"
A"The US said it brought down the damaged drone after it became "unflyable" when a Russian jet clipped its propeller - but Moscow has denied these claims." - so Russia deliberately damaged the drone to cause it to crash.
A"The US says that it was downed by them following a collision" It's doubtful the US would deliberately crash a drone if it was not already crippled and beyond saving. The US `downing` the drone simply means it was crashed in a controlled manner. It's downing was still caused by the Russian action.
Q"the Russians say that it came down after maneuvering near the sea"
A. These drones operate at high altitude. It's unlikely without Russian aggression the drone would have been low. So either the Russian aggression caused it to descend and crash or it was crashing due to damage.
Q"It was in international airspace"
A. Irrelevant as to whether the Russian downing could be considered a combat action. Combat in this context being defined as an enemy military asset destroying the asset of another. I would also argue that the term `combat` doesn't have to include the firing of weapons. Combat in my original post meaning a military tactic to destroy an enemy asset.

A better argument would be to suggest the Russian aircraft accidentally hit the drone. I doubt that very much due to the reports of dumping fuel, clipping the prop etc.

"There were drones up there before, there are drones up there now, there will be drones up there tomorrow." - again irrelevant to my original post.

I still believe Russia engaging and destroying the drone was a valid tactic for them. Whether it was `politically correct`, `legal` or `polite` is another matter however.

Last edited by uxb99; 15th Mar 2023 at 19:42.
uxb99 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2023, 18:59
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Den Haag
Age: 57
Posts: 6,386
Received 386 Likes on 223 Posts
Originally Posted by melmothtw
There would likely be no ramifications, beyond an increased NATO fighter presence in the Black Sea I'd imagine. See the Iran shootdown of the Global Hawk in 2019.
There is quite a presence already. Constanta is pretty busy!
212man is online now  
Old 15th Mar 2023, 19:04
  #144 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by chevvron
Yeah so someone with guns gets on your tail and the F111 lights a burst of fuel in his face; does that count?
Irrelevant in this discussion. It's still a valid combat tactic to down a drone with fuel if that works. After all Spitfires and Typhoons used their wings to destroy V1's and were given those V1's as kills. It also wasn't meant to be taken literally and was just a quip on the commentators remark kind of coming to fruition.
uxb99 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2023, 19:11
  #145 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Baldeep Inminj
The US is absolutely terrified of confrontation with Russia.
Terrified is not the appropriate term to use here. Neither the USA nor Russia is `terrified` of war with each other. It would be more appropriate in my opinion to say both countries, but certainly the USA, are `respectful` of each others capabilities and aware of the ramifications of a war.
uxb99 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 15th Mar 2023, 19:14
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The back of beyond
Posts: 2,146
Received 177 Likes on 92 Posts
Originally Posted by 212man
There is quite a presence already. Constanta is pretty busy!
Post the Global Hawk shootdown the US moved F-22s into theatre. I would suspect a similar response following this.
melmothtw is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2023, 19:19
  #147 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by melmothtw
There would likely be no ramifications, beyond an increased NATO fighter presence in the Black Sea I'd imagine. See the Iran shootdown of the Global Hawk in 2019.
I wonder if Russian `Rules of engagement` if there is such a thing prevents them doing so?
uxb99 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2023, 19:20
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: England
Posts: 351
Received 13 Likes on 11 Posts
Originally Posted by kilo_foxtrot
RIP Forte11

It all seems very sketchy - I wonder if this was a cack-handed attempt by the Russians to bring it down relatively intact in order to retrieve it? Or maybe they got fed up with it and had orders to bring it down without actually shooting it down (which could be interpreted as an overtly hostile act?).
Sounds highly plausible.
It will be interesting to see whether the US does anything about it.
Buster15 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2023, 19:21
  #149 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by melmothtw
Post the Global Hawk shootdown the US moved F-22s into theatre. I would suspect a similar response following this.
What sort of fatigue life, flying hours do these modern jets have? I would imagine this war is using them up rather quickly at the moment.
uxb99 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 15th Mar 2023, 19:29
  #150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 64 Likes on 20 Posts
Originally Posted by a_ross84
The balloon was in us air space. This was in international air space.

Should American tax payer not worry that Russia is downing multimillion dollar aircraft paid for by taxes?

Let's hope for a proportionate response.
It might have been in international air space but it was also right in their back yard so hardly surprising. Wester leaders are constantly banging their drums now and declaring that China and Russia want to end the 'rule based order' so why be so surprised when they show scant regard for an autonomous vehicle that was almost certainly aiding their enemy and operating only a short distance outside the 12nm boundary of their airspace, or maybe even inside it?

If American tax payers are really worried about the lose of a vehicle that is 0.0009% of their annual defence budget then maybe they should not be operating military equipment a fraction outside of the 12nm territorial border and 6000+ miles away from America.

End of the day it was a drone, and if Biden is calling it out as 'Environmentally unsound' then I would suggest they don't really give a toss, so neither should we.
m0nkfish is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 15th Mar 2023, 19:49
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 154
Received 39 Likes on 27 Posts
Originally Posted by uxb99
What sort of fatigue life, flying hours do these modern jets have? I would imagine this war is using them up rather quickly at the moment.
Technology generally evolves faster than planes time out.
The F-22 might be seen as an exception because it was never made in much more than prototype quantities, so it is a very maintenance heavy item. Too costly to continue maintaining.
Sfojimbo is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2023, 22:02
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 249
Received 37 Likes on 18 Posts
Originally Posted by uxb99
Terrified is not the appropriate term to use here. Neither the USA nor Russia is `terrified` of war with each other. It would be more appropriate in my opinion to say both countries, but certainly the USA, are `respectful` of each others capabilities and aware of the ramifications of a war.
I can only say 'wow' - I am almost speechless. You believe the USA is 'respectful' of potential nuclear war?

Would you honestly want to live in a nation that was not terrified of a nuclear war? Really? If I was you, I would pray that my Government was absolutely terrified of the prospect and would do anything to avoid it, but hey, that's just me. Honestly, do you have eyes? Are you seeing the Russians slaughter Ukranian civilians on a daily basis?The US is refusing to militarily engage in the war in Ukraine, despite the fact that they could save thousands of Ukrainians by unleashing the might of the US, and annihilating the Russian forces there, but they won't. Why? Because they are terrified of the consequences!!!...or do you honestly believe that better wording is ' the US is permitting the slaughter of free and innocent people because we are respectful of the capabilities of our advesary'.

To my earlier point, I listened to the live briefing today by the Sec Def and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. The Chairman, Gen Milley, was asked if this was 'an act of war', and he shut the question down without answering it - he refused to even discuss it. My point exactly, the USA are terrified of confrontation with Russia and will deny, obfuscate, confuse and deflect - he did it today for all to see. This is not my opinion or agenda, it is pure fact - just watch the press briefing.

Baldeep Inminj is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2023, 22:35
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,156
Received 92 Likes on 53 Posts
They are just more diplomats than you. They don't let an event dictate how they want to react.
Less Hair is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2023, 22:36
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Washington.
Age: 74
Posts: 1,107
Received 167 Likes on 62 Posts
Originally Posted by uxb99
Terrified is not the appropriate term to use here. Neither the USA nor Russia is `terrified` of war with each other. It would be more appropriate in my opinion to say both countries, but certainly the USA, are `respectful` of each others capabilities and aware of the ramifications of a war.
I would not commit US forces to "defend a drone", it's hardly a defense of freedom and democracy, hardly worth a single American life, let alone starting an armed conflict over.

On the other hand, if an effective means of defense can be fitted to the drone, I'd be for making MIG pilots think twice.
GlobalNav is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2023, 22:56
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 64 Likes on 20 Posts
Originally Posted by Baldeep Inminj
I can only say 'wow' - I am almost speechless. You believe the USA is 'respectful' of potential nuclear war?

Would you honestly want to live in a nation that was not terrified of a nuclear war? Really? If I was you, I would pray that my Government was absolutely terrified of the prospect and would do anything to avoid it, but hey, that's just me. Honestly, do you have eyes? Are you seeing the Russians slaughter Ukranian civilians on a daily basis?The US is refusing to militarily engage in the war in Ukraine, despite the fact that they could save thousands of Ukrainians by unleashing the might of the US, and annihilating the Russian forces there, but they won't. Why? Because they are terrified of the consequences!!!...or do you honestly believe that better wording is ' the US is permitting the slaughter of free and innocent people because we are respectful of the capabilities of our advesary'.

To my earlier point, I listened to the live briefing today by the Sec Def and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. The Chairman, Gen Milley, was asked if this was 'an act of war', and he shut the question down without answering it - he refused to even discuss it. My point exactly, the USA are terrified of confrontation with Russia and will deny, obfuscate, confuse and deflect - he did it today for all to see. This is not my opinion or agenda, it is pure fact - just watch the press briefing.
So where is the line drawn? I don't believe anything remotely resembling a line has been crossed here, it's just a drone after all and is essentially expendable. I think the previous poster was correct though, and the appropriate term is 'respectful'. People who are 'terrified' don't act rationally. I'm not sure the idea of a USA that is terrified of the consequences of escalation is something that is helpful to anyone. What about article 5? Would a terrified USA come to the aid of an ally?

I don't believe Gen Milley shut the question down because he, or his country is terrified of the consequences of escalation. I think he shut the question down because this is a none event, and a cost of doing business right now.
m0nkfish is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 15th Mar 2023, 22:57
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 249
Received 37 Likes on 18 Posts
I did not suggest comitting US forces to defend a drone, I suggested that the US was refusing to commit forces to prevent the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent people, and this is is a fact. Ukranians are being slaughtered by a military force that the US could annihilate in short order, but they refuse to do so. Why? Do you believe the US want Ukranians to be slaughtered? If not, then ask why the US refuses to do so...it's because they are terrified of the Russian reaction. This is a fact. There is almost nothing Russia cannot do that the US will not ignore, deflect or otherwise describe as anything other than an act of war. The facts speak for themselves - the US is absolutely petrified of conflict with Russia and will allow them to do almost anything in an attempt to prevent it. Watch mark Milley today - he point-blank refused to answer if the drone attack was an act of war - he was too scared to even go there ...the chairman of the joint chiefs FFS. The US is now just nothing but a hollow voice.
Baldeep Inminj is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2023, 23:10
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: east ESSEX
Posts: 4,713
Received 86 Likes on 52 Posts
It would be interesting to see any video from the drone,especially how a Sukhoi was able to `chop the prop`,if that`s what happened,without ending up with a faceful of Reaper......
Global..it can be fitted with `defensive stuff`,depending on model/task..
sycamore is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2023, 23:29
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Uk
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes on 9 Posts
Originally Posted by uxb99
Q"What? By what stretch of warped imagination do you work that out?"
A"The US said it brought down the damaged drone after it became "unflyable" when a Russian jet clipped its propeller - but Moscow has denied these claims." - so Russia deliberately damaged the drone to cause it to crash.
A"The US says that it was downed by them following a collision" It's doubtful the US would deliberately crash a drone if it was not already crippled and beyond saving. The US `downing` the drone simply means it was crashed in a controlled manner. It's downing was still caused by the Russian action.
Q"the Russians say that it came down after maneuvering near the sea"
A. These drones operate at high altitude. It's unlikely without Russian aggression the drone would have been low. So either the Russian aggression caused it to descend and crash or it was crashing due to damage.
Q"It was in international airspace"
A. Irrelevant as to whether the Russian downing could be considered a combat action. Combat in this context being defined as an enemy military asset destroying the asset of another. I would also argue that the term `combat` doesn't have to include the firing of weapons. Combat in my original post meaning a military tactic to destroy an enemy asset.

A better argument would be to suggest the Russian aircraft accidentally hit the drone. I doubt that very much due to the reports of dumping fuel, clipping the prop etc.

"There were drones up there before, there are drones up there now, there will be drones up there tomorrow." - again irrelevant to my original post.

I still believe Russia engaging and destroying the drone was a valid tactic for them. Whether it was `politically correct`, `legal` or `polite` is another matter however.
100% agree. Although I am in the camp of “the only good Russian is a dead Russian” it is a valid strategy. It is enabling their enemy. They know nothing will come of it. Just surprised they haven’t been taking them down daily. I think they would think twice and then a third or fourth time if it was a manned aircraft though.
Flyhighfirst is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2023, 00:01
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 622
If you zoom in on your still image ....the first digit is not a '1' ....it looks like the standard coded serial for the US
I'm a new account so I can't post images. If you go to the original source on Telegram (Fighterbomber) for the uncompressed video it clearly shows the number is 294. It's MQ-9 15-4294 in the video if we fill the blanks between known serials. The uncompressed video doesn't look nearly as odd either. I think the video is very much real. Apparently the drone was downed around 7AM local time, which would mean the drone in the video wasn't shot down that day judging by the lighting.







Snafu2 is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2023, 00:06
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: Florida
Posts: 40
Received 13 Likes on 5 Posts
A horrific accident some time ago had US fighters intercept on a private twin plane that had wandered into a restricted space off the coast of Florida.
Don't remember this one.
What year?
Inbound from Cuba, or....?
Sea Plane Driver is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.