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"Russian jet collides with US drone over Black Sea"

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"Russian jet collides with US drone over Black Sea"

Old 14th Mar 2023, 21:04
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Originally Posted by 212man
In contrast with the storm over a balloon!
The balloon over flew the US - including 'sensitive' military installations. The drone was in international airspace. A bit different...
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 21:10
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Originally Posted by tdracer
The balloon over flew the US - including 'sensitive' military installations. The drone was in international airspace. A bit different...
The drone was minding its own business then? Or was it spying too, albeit in international airspace. Perhaps a question of degree rather than an absolute?
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 21:36
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Definitely a win in the Russian column though.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 21:42
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Originally Posted by voyageur9
... in a time of war, perhaps. But causing the deliberate destruction of another nation's military asset in international airspace is an 'act of war' by the agressors, in this instance, the Russians.
Uh, no, it isn't. (But it's certainly an unfriendly act).
I am not sure where you come up with that "act of war" assessment. Please share where that comes from. Or would that be from a place where the sun does not shine?
As a point of comparison, the use of [email protected] to attempt to blind US aircrew was a far more hostile act, but that goes back a few years ...
Originally Posted by Ninthace
The drone was minding its own business then? Or was it spying too, albeit in international airspace. Perhaps a question of degree rather than an absolute?
Thank you comrade Ninthace, for your spin in accordance with RT.
To answer your question, it was flying in international airspace.
Had it violated Russian airspace, though, it would be a very different matter.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 21:50
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Originally Posted by Uberteknik
Question to be asked: is that the Pentagon definition of international airspace according to international law, or, was it flying in the unrecognised illegally annexed Ukraine airspace claimed by Russia? Seems like the Russkies don't want the peninsula probed for weakness and intelligence given to the Ukraine Defence Ministry.
If it was flying in crimean airspace it wouldn't be international airspace it would either be Ukrainian or russian depending on what side of the fence you stand. Western ISAR has not been flying in ukrainian airspace so it would have been flying in ICAO recognised international airspace
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 22:09
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Has anybody got the FR24 flight track of the drone? Might be interesting.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 22:27
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Originally Posted by Ninthace
The drone was minding its own business then? Or was it spying too, albeit in international airspace. Perhaps a question of degree rather than an absolute?
Surveillance via space, international waters, and international airspace is a widely accepted practice, codified in many international treaties of which Russia is a party.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 22:32
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This wasn't an MQ-4 Global Hawk like those we see on FR-24 almost every day flying above 50,000 ft,collecting intelligence.
This was an MQ-9 which carries weapons and flies much lower.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 22:32
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Originally Posted by alfaman
What makes you think they're flying without authorisation? Over the Black Sea, as stated above, it's not in anyone's airspace.
To be fair to the poster, he didn't claim that this particular drone needed authorisation to be over the Black Sea.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 22:41
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Originally Posted by Ninthace
Fit missiles in future for self defence?
Why bother with the cost. You know nobody is going to authorise the shoot down of a Russian aircraft in international airspace no matter how hostile they are to a drone.


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Old 14th Mar 2023, 22:42
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Originally Posted by Sfojimbo
This wasn't an MQ-4 Global Hawk like those we see on FR-24 almost every day flying above 50,000 ft,collecting intelligence.
This was an MQ-9 which carries weapons and flies much lower.
I doubt it had any weapons at all, which would have been obvious to the fighters before they destroyed it. What point are you making?
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 22:43
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Originally Posted by Wycombe
Back on the subject, when I first saw this story, I wondered if it was the Global Hawk that one can see most days on FR24 making its was back and forth across the Black Sea - it apparently wasn't.

That tends to carry oit its missons up at around FL600 so you would think out of reach of even an irresponsibly flown Su27?
Identified as a Reaper in the first post on this thread.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 22:43
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This was an MQ-9 which carries weapons and flies much lower.
Did anybody say it was armed? Only asking as Ive not seen anything to suggest it was.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 22:48
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Originally Posted by Brewster Buffalo
or provide a fighter escort?
With an endurance of 12+ hours. Good luck with that, and if you are going to send manned fighters with an unmanned drone. Forget the drone and send a manned reconnaissance aircraft then.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 22:50
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Originally Posted by Flyhighfirst
Why bother with the cost. You know nobody is going to authorise the shoot down of a Russian aircraft in international airspace no matter how hostile they are to a drone.
You did see the word "self"?
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 22:53
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LW50

"Act of war means hostile or warlike action, whether declared or not, in a time of peace or war, whether initiated by a local government, foreign government or foreign group, civil unrest, insurrection, rebellion or civil war."

So, this seems to fit the the "hostile or warlike action .... in a time of peace or war" but, in fairness, I couldn't find an equivalent in the various Geneva conventions. So, perhaps my use of a law dictionary definition was too quick on the trigger. My apologies.

In U.S. law ....
18 USC 2331(4) .... an act of war is defined as follows:
(4) the term “act of war” means any act occurring in the course of— (A) declared war; (B) armed conflict, whether or not war has been declared, between two or more nations; or (C) armed conflict between military forces of any origin;

the interaction over the Black Sea likely falls short of the second definition.
best regards

Last edited by voyageur9; 14th Mar 2023 at 22:55. Reason: typos
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 22:57
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Originally Posted by Low average
I doubt it had any weapons at all, which would have been obvious to the fighters before they destroyed it. What point are you making?
The point that I am making is that it was an an MQ-9, which is designed to carry weapons and flies much lower, as opposed to an MQ-4 intelligence gathering drone which many of us have been following over the last year.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 22:57
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Originally Posted by alfaman
What makes you think they're flying without authorisation? Ove the Black Sea, as stated above, it's not in anyone's airspace.
My first thought as well. These come from sigonella in Italy and overfly a number of countries. All of which will have given permission.

I then realised he was talking generally. Like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, numerous African countries. He was correct in that so chose not to comment on his post.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 23:02
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Originally Posted by mangere1957
Just curious as to how you know what the drone operator thought. I'm guessing that you don't have reliable remote mind-reading capabilities. I do realise that the CIA once carried out 'remote-viewing'; maybe you are one of the reliable remote-viewers that the CIA identified?
On that basis, we don't know if there was a drone, any Russian aircraft, or Russia exists at all. Perhaps Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

Still, if we accept the reports that are being made the Russians made several attempts to disable the drone with a fuel dump until one of them got too close and clipped the propeller. CBS said that Pentagon reps said there were 19 passes. I'd think fuel would be discernible as it liquid-blasted the camera housing, but maybe Ivan just can piss like a race horse.

This will likely influence things as much as when I shake a fist at a cloud. Our diplomats will express concern to theirs and their diplomats will say it was all a misunderstanding that would not be repeated if the US played with their toys in their own back yard instead of butting in.

The biggest problem will be for the pilot who has to explain what happened to the fighter and why there is a ding in it. "It was like that when I signed it out" is unlikely to work.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 23:02
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Originally Posted by Flyhighfirst
My first thought as well. These come from sigonella in Italy and overfly a number of countries. All of which will have given permission.

I then realised he was talking generally. Like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, numerous African countries. He was correct in that so chose not to comment on his post.
No this one isn't necessarily from Sigonella.

This wasn't an MQ-4 Global Hawk like those we see on FR-24 almost every day flying above 50,000 ft,collecting intelligence.
This was an MQ-9 which normally carries weapons and flies much lower.
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