"Russian jet collides with US drone over Black Sea"

[beardy]

Originally Posted by Sailvi767

Fuel will snuff out a turbine engine or even cause it to explode. Ask any old A4 drivers what happens when a burst of fuel goes down the intake. I have no idea what you mean by visual marker as the fuel will dissipate in a few seconds and the drone is moving.

There was provision, many years ago, for tankers to dump a squirt of fuel to aid visual acquisition by receivers during silent procedures. I'm probably wrong, but I just wondered if something similar may have been going on here with a squirt of fuel drawing eyes to the right part of the sky.

[ORAC]

The wingman will have had eyes on the lead anyway.

[john.wb]

[QUOTE=ORAC;11403327]An Aegis cruiser would be an easier way to provide AD cover for the various drone & ISR orbits in the area

I believe the Bosphorus is closed to warships.

[Rovertime]

Is is me, or is there a significant heading change between the two shown passes? Where is the sun in pass 2 vs pass 1? Just asking questions, and wondering why.....

[unmanned_droid]

Great thread, peak pprune. Very enjoyable read.

[Ohrly]

Originally Posted by Rovertime

Is is me, or is there a significant heading change between the two shown passes? Where is the sun in pass 2 vs pass 1? Just asking questions, and wondering why.....

Because the drone changed course I would suggest.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by Argonautical

I would actually say that it was bad luck the Flanker wasn’t brought down.

Out of interest, is there any confirmation that both Su-27's made it successfully back to base ?

[NutLoose]

Originally Posted by Rovertime

Is is me, or is there a significant heading change between the two shown passes? Where is the sun in pass 2 vs pass 1? Just asking questions, and wondering why.....

It had turned through 90 degrees, the head up display has an N for North on it, on the first shot N was on their six, so they were heading South, the second pass it was heading about 270 degrees West and turning as N was on the left..

[ORAC]

Is is me, or is there a significant heading change between the two shown passes? Where is the sun in pass 2 vs pass 1? Just asking questions, and wondering why.....

Depends.

There are a variety of track/orbit patterns depending on the type of data to be acquired and whether it needs a stationary position or a long baseline for triangulation etc. Plus depending on winds it might just be for repositioning etc.

Regardless, the MQ isn’t manoeuvring during the actual intercepts, wings straight and level, so it isn’t evasion.

[JanetFlight]

Only 24 hours after the event and USA releases a ton of pics and videos... But why almost one month has passed and not even a single pic or clip about those three "objects" downed by US?

[Ohrly]

Originally Posted by JanetFlight

Only 24 hours after the event and USA releases a ton of pics and videos... But why almost one month has passed and not even a single pic or clip about those three "objects" downed by US?

One may contain sensitive information, the other is a video of two well known aircraft types colliding?

[GreenXCode]

Range v Resolution - the midair is pretty incontrovertible esp as the w@nker went belly-up at closure. Clearly, formation was not a strong suit in BFT - helmet on for incoming…

[mahogany bob]

GUESS - what MIGHT have happened ?

2 Flankers intercept Drone
Spent 20 mins + ( a long time )fooling around it intercepts/ formation / passes
Difficult because of speed difference )
Got bored so perhaps tried to dump fuel on it ?
(ROE stopped them shooting it down. ?)
Tried low speed intercept ( with fuel dump ?) from rear raised nose and put on full power (afterburner ?)
to perhaps try to blow it off course with jet wash ?

Sunk a few feet by mistake and accidentally nicked prop with tailplane ? - as discussed earlier lucky not hit Drone tailplane causing more damage.
Drone loses power and ditches.

The Flanker pilots would be tempted to take much more risks with a Drone than with a manned aircraft - ROE ?

Qs

What altitude were they at ?

What is the minimum speed of the Drone and the Flanker at that altitude? - the Drone’s would be much lower - 150- 170 kts ?
Why did the Flanker not use flap to lower stall speed?
Would the drone manoeuvre to make life difficult?
Would fuel soak worry the Drone and stop the turbo prop ( seen lots of fuel spillage during AAR but never a problem )

PS if US ships enter the Black Sea ( authorised by Turkey ? )to search for wreckage is there a risk of confrontation with Russian Navy?

[Recc]

Originally Posted by mahogany bob

if US ships enter the Black Sea ( authorised by Turkey ? )to search for wreckage is there a risk of confrontation with Soviet Navy?

Fortunately there is zero chance of that!

[GreenXCode]

Guess Work - what a rumour is for

Originally Posted by mahogany bob

GUESS - what MIGHT have happened ?

2 Flankers intercept Drone
Spent 20 mins + ( a long time )fooling around it intercepts/ formation / passes
Difficult because of speed difference )
Got bored so perhaps tried to dump fuel on it ?
(ROE stopped them shooting it down. ?)
Tried low speed intercept ( with fuel dump ?) from rear raised nose and put on full power (afterburner ?)
to perhaps try to blow it off course with jet wash ?

Sunk a few feet by mistake and accidentally nicked prop with tailplane ? - as discussed earlier lucky not hit Drone tailplane causing more damage.
Drone loses power and ditches.

The Flanker pilots would be tempted to take much more risks with a Drone than with a manned aircraft - ROE ?

Qs

What altitude were they at ?

What is the minimum speed of the Drone and the Flanker at that altitude? - the Drone’s would be much lower - 150- 170 kts ?
Why did the Flanker not use flap to lower stall speed?
Would the drone manoeuvre to make life difficult?
Would fuel soak worry the Drone and stop the turbo prop ( seen lots of fuel spillage during AAR but never a problem )

PS if US ships enter the Black Sea ( authorised by Turkey ? )to search for wreckage is there a risk of confrontation with Russian Navy?

Quite a few ideas here. Firstly, AEGIS cruisers and Type 45s r perfect for Black Sea AD, depends upon political signalling-I’d stick an NFZ over Crimea and ‘politically intend to extend’ in view of this ‘tactical aberration.’ Probably FL300_FL500, lower from the colour of the video. Speed 220kts so well achievable by SU27. He was too busy losing visual and dumping fuel to dump flap; drone was not (and can never be) aggressive c/w what SU27 can do. Highly likely fuel was to interfere with sensors - did a nice flyby of a Type 42 in the 80s with fuel dump; did not like the paint bill after the fact. ROE has nothing to do with risk at the tactical level; almost certain ROE on both sides is to prevent WW3.

[Nick H.]

I choose to believe that the pilot delitberately bent one prop blade with an astonishingly precise and brave bit of flying. I hate Putin and his pilots for killing Ukrainians. He and they should die. But what a video. As an aviation achievement it's historic.

Edit: actually the vid shows damage to two prop blades.

[Cedrik]

Originally Posted by albatross

I well remember that event.
As I recall the “Western World” was very outraged by the event. Including most people in the USA.
Care to comment on KL007 ?

Yes, 007 wasn't flying where they said it was, a lot of unexplained anomalies with it's flight path. Ghosting with an American military aircraft close to the Korean aircraft was more than dangerous. At least the Americans were using an unmanned aircraft this time instead of using an airline full of innocent pax to gather intel.

Why not show the full video? If indeed the prop was damaged then the unbalanced prop would have shaken the aircraft badly. I still maintain if the prop was hit the tailplane would have been taken out. Either the attacking fighter was skilfully flown to avoid any impact apart from the prop or as most say here it flew into the drone by bad flying.

Interesting they said they decided to land the aircraft after seeing the prop damage, no thrust they would have had no choice. If indeed the fighter hit the prop then there would be minimum damage of no tailplane one side or both. The "Landing" would then be vertical. If the fighter was damaged video would be released of the damaged fighter. Lets see unedited video, much chance of that? How does an impact hook a prop blade? Just one blade damaged indicates the prop was rotating very slowly if at all. A 20 ton fighter impacting a prop disc that's doing 2000 revs would do more damage than hooking one blade.

[GreenXCode]

Originally Posted by Cedrik

Yes, 007 wasn't flying where they said it was, a lot of unexplained anomalies with it's flight path. Ghosting with an American military aircraft close to the Korean aircraft was more than dangerous. At least the Americans were using an unmanned aircraft this time instead of using an airline full of innocent pax to gather intel.

Why not show the full video? If indeed the prop was damaged then the unbalanced prop would have shaken the aircraft badly. I still maintain if the prop was hit the tailplane would have been taken out. Either the attacking fighter was skilfully flown to avoid any impact apart from the prop or as most say here it flew into the drone by bad flying.

Interesting they said they decided to land the aircraft after seeing the prop damage, no thrust they would have had no choice. If indeed the fighter hit the prop then there would be minimum damage of no tailplane one side or both. The "Landing" would then be vertical. If the fighter was damaged video would be released of the damaged fighter. Lets see unedited video, much chance of that? How does an impact hook a prop blade? Just one blade damaged indicates the prop was rotating very slowly if at all. A 20 ton fighter impacting a prop disc that's doing 2000 revs would do more damage than hooking one blade.

Monty Python - The Black Knight - Tis but a Scratch

You Tube

[Flyhighfirst]

Originally Posted by Nick H.

I choose to believe that the pilot delitberately bent one prop blade with an astonishingly precise and brave bit of flying. I hate Putin and his pilots for killing Ukrainians. He and they should die. But what a video. As an aviation achievement it's historic.

Edit: actually the vid shows damage to two prop blades.

Don’t mean to sound condescending.. actually I do. You’re an idiot. Not even superman could manage to just damage blade 2.

The fact that even auto spell check doesn’t clue in with you lends weight.

[Flyhighfirst]

Originally Posted by GreenXCode

Quite a few ideas here. Firstly, AEGIS cruisers and Type 45s r perfect for Black Sea AD, depends upon political signalling-I’d stick an NFZ over Crimea and ‘politically intend to extend’ in view of this ‘tactical aberration.’ Probably FL300_FL500, lower from the colour of the video. Speed 220kts so well achievable by SU27. He was too busy losing visual and dumping fuel to dump flap; drone was not (and can never be) aggressive c/w what SU27 can do. Highly likely fuel was to interfere with sensors - did a nice flyby of a Type 42 in the 80s with fuel dump; did not like the paint bill after the fact. ROE has nothing to do with risk at the tactical level; almost certain ROE on both sides is to prevent WW3.

There is less than zero chance of the US trying to impose a no fly zone. They will let Ukraine loose before that would even enter a conversation. This is a proxy war. There is no way the west gets sucked in to a conflict they initially thought would last weeks. And truthfully don’t really care about the outcome other than giving the Russians a good dressing down.