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Next CAS

Old 30th Mar 2023, 17:32
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mahogany bob
Finnningly Boy

Amalgamate the forces- Oh no not that again !

Well we know that it will never happen as there are far too many comfortable jobs up top! (more Admirals than ships ). The new CAS will never vote himself out of a job.

BUT with only 158,000 men in uniform do we need such a top heavy 3 pronged system - With the 3 arms fighting over a very small pie.

Inter service squabbles contributed to binning the Harrier early and buying 2 carriers which some think are very expensive luxuries!
All this has nothing to do with the services not being blended into a small town militia. Being small now is certainly not the signal for a mediocre future as a titular one man band force. The problems about squabbles over money affect all countries armed forces, including the USA. The problem is political tin ears and setting each against one another so they'll each destroy the other arms case for spending. This would increase for certain even when they're all wearing the same uniform. There'll still be a senior officer in charge of each branch within, still fighting over a much smaller (courtesy of amalgamation) slice of a smaller cake, it is a recipe for further contraction and irrelevance.

FB
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Old 30th Mar 2023, 17:37
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mahogany bob
Finnningly Boy

Amalgamate the forces- Oh no not that again !

Well we know that it will never happen as there are far too many comfortable jobs up top! (more Admirals than ships ). The new CAS will never vote himself out of a job.

BUT with only 158,000 men in uniform do we need such a top heavy 3 pronged system - With the 3 arms fighting over a very small pie.

Inter service squabbles contributed to binning the Harrier early and buying 2 carriers which some think are very expensive luxuries!
i experienced the best and worst of the Canadian Armed Forces unification. The fundamental problem was the typical government approach to any big new idea, if a little bit of unification is good more must be better.

Where unification worked was in the support side. Do you need Army, Navy and Air Force doctors or just military doctors. Same with a lot of the supply, personnel and logistics functions.

Where it failed utterly was recruiting. Having a purple recruiting system produces a purple Private/Able Seaman/Airman with no connection to their service at the most impressionable time.

Where it should have worked but hasn’t is joint procurement. What was supposed to happen was the development of a hierarchy of requirements ranked by importance to the CAF, not by individual service desires. Unfortunate while there is a joint requirement’s organization reporting to the VCDS, in practice capability and capacity development is mired in constant zero sum inter service rivalry.
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Old 30th Mar 2023, 19:10
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
It seems like you and I are playing two sides of the same game. My belief that a non aircrew Officer should not be the head of the UK Military Air Arm seems to be just as entrenched as your belief that Aircrew donít know how to lead.

I actually hope that I am proven wrong though. I suspect that your mind would never be changed.

BV
Sounds very much like a certain Staneval we all know and love. This subject was recently brought up in a group conversation and the helo pilot was mentioned. The guy stared back to the the person mentioning none FJ CAS with eyes as powerful as two LRMTS's. The radiation emitted was blinding!
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Old 30th Mar 2023, 19:21
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Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin
Without in any way wishing to trivialise the point you are making, I dread to think what "Air Regularity" might entail......

One assumes you're referring to Air Regulatory........
Thanks NaB. For some reason I must have had regularity on my mind, though can't think why you understand. I'll leave it as posted as a warning to self to proof read before hitting send...
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 02:55
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
It seems like you and I are playing two sides of the same game. My belief that a non aircrew Officer should not be the head of the UK Military Air Arm seems to be just as entrenched as your belief that Aircrew donít know how to lead.

I actually hope that I am proven wrong though. I suspect that your mind would never be changed.

BV
Well Bob, considering the current incumbent, leadership appears to be lacking, as it does from some of the previous holders, all aircrew.
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 05:58
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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To select a CAS who has been a pilot, the RAF must first train pilots! The engineer should be given a fair crack. He can't be any worse, and is likely to bring a more balanced view.
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 09:53
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Seems to be sorted: https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles...the-air-staff/

As long as it is best person for the job and not just some milestone wokery "...As the first ground branch officer to command his Service, his appointment marks a new milestone for the Royal Air Force.Ē
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 12:04
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I am very pleased to see this, he is genuinely a very good person.
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 19:13
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Is there a date yet? I need time to arrange a party… Ding-dong the wicked woke is dead!
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 23:23
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Originally Posted by iRaven


Is there a date yet? I need time to arrange a partyÖ Ding-dong the wicked woke is dead!
Well he wasn't wokish when he was getting rockets landing about him at Basrah. I was out there to see it. Who are you?
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 23:37
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Diff Tail Shim
Well he wasn't wokish when he was getting rockets landing about him at Basrah. I was out there to see it. Who are you?
Very silly remark, you should know your audience, or perhaps remain quiet.
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Old 1st Apr 2023, 14:41
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(Disclaimer: this is very much an outsider's view)

In the late 80's, a wise (then Wing Commander) future AOC 1 Group wrote of the disconnect between junior officers and VSOs in the Royal Air Force and the affect this had on retention of promising leaders. In focussing on pilots he highlighted that unlike future army and navy VSOs they didn't get experience of command, particularly the man management elements, until they achieved squadron command. For those on the path to VSO, their time in these and similar posts is short before promotion to air rank. As a ENGO maybe the new CAS has spent more time in close contact with the rank and file, and will take advantage of this experience that the career paths his pilot and (as Union Jack pointed out, a single navigator in Lord Peach) predecessors couldn't benefit from. I hope that constant expeditionary operations have helped aircrew officers in at least having closer contact with others. I would also hope that in the thirty years following the document referred to above document, the RAF has taken a serious look at what its junior officers need to experience to make successful VSOs and is taking action to implement the findings.

The previous commander of the UK Field Army Ivan Jones as ex- REME and RE was also in origin an engineer. The Army has always looked at and benefited from the fact that its officers have to perform as combined arms commanders on the road to VSO, having years of experience in single arm command roles, starting from day one.

I don't want to prejudge and wish AM Knighton success as CAS. I just hope he has the moral strength to stand up any future political fashions that prevent the Air Force being efficient in performing its primary role.
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Old 1st Apr 2023, 14:51
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Clearly the right man for the job if you look at his impressive CV. He has filled top jobs with distinction. The so-called "lack of medals"/brevet arguements put forward elsewhere are irrelevant. "Best man for the job" is what matters and RK fits the bill. Let us be honest please: we have had some fairly poor fast jet CAS incumbents in the past 40 years.
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Old 1st Apr 2023, 21:39
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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As said above so eloquently by Slxowf, pilots do not tend to get an understanding of command until they reach flight commander / Sqn boss ranks, where as a junior engineering officer would tend to be put in charge of troops straight off, hopefully it has given him a good grounding and he remembers those days at the coal face, has learnt from them and can project it forward.
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Old 1st Apr 2023, 21:49
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
pilots do not tend to get an understanding of command until they reach flight commander / Sqn boss ranks
That might be the case with FJ types but is UTTER drivel when looking at Gp2 and Gp3 pilots.
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 01:57
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Originally Posted by viz
Utter drivel, as a 23 year old captain in charge of an aircraft and 100s of pax flying all over the world I think some pilots have a better understanding of command than their engineering counterparts in charge of GEF and a couple of U/S powersets
Oh, so you donít get it! What command? Crew of 11, captain writes on who, captain has overall guidance of what? Silly, if not infantile first post.
Does this 23 year old hear charges, sort family issues out etc etc.
Iíd take a seasoned EngO over most aircrew, they have to do people as well as power sets.

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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 02:48
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Originally Posted by Countdown begins
Oh, so you don’t get it! What command? Crew of 11, captain writes on who, captain has overall guidance of what? Silly, if not infantile first post.
Does this 23 year old hear charges, sort family issues out etc etc.
I’d take a seasoned EngO over most aircrew, they have to do people as well as power sets.
Precisely, they are two different things, an Engineering Officer will be in charge of all aspects of a Squadron Groundcrew from managing issues with their accommodation, personal life, allocation of resources, forward planning and even looking after the aircraft and ensuring availability etc etc etc, something that a pilot will not get involved in until they reach Sqn Boss status.
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 02:50
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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When I went through training as an airman, Ground Comms fitter, at Locking, at least 2 of the FLTCDR's were aircrew FLTLT. Apparently it was a standard thing back in the 70's and gave aircrew that much need experience.
I understand that it gradually disappeared as we became a bit short of aircew!!
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 09:11
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I don't know enough about exAscoteer2's point to comment but transport, ISTAR. and tanker aircrew officers are absent from the list of CsAS whose careers started after WW2. The research for paper I referred to was by its nature only able to concentrate one particular group and written by an FJ pilot; I assume he naturally looked at the officer career path he had most experience of.

The last CAS with experience of multi-engined fixed wing aircraft with a big crew was MRAF Lord Craig and he was an FJ pilot until he joined 35 as a flight commander. The last one whose career started in them was MRAF Sir Michael Beetham (who left the office just over 40 years ago and was originally a WW2 RAFVR officer). I am deliberately excluding Canberra/Wessex pilot MRAF Sir Peter Harding as I assume exA's point wouldn't apply.
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 12:03
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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I never really understood the Royal Navy's habit of giving command of random selections of ratings to aircrew officers. I can see that they (the officers) would get early exposure to the disciplinary system and the opportunity to provide the leadership, counselling and guidance that is expected from JO's; it just seems that if there is a disconnect between the rating's work supervisor and their Oi/c general welfare-and-discip, they might be able to play one off against the other. Avoidance of the "One Person 2 Bosses" thing and all that. I would be interested in a considered opinion from someone who had experience of that system, by way of comparison with the way things are done with RAF JO aircrew.

There have been really good RAF Ground Branch officers who have risen to appropriate rank based on their skill as officers and leaders - Sue Gray being a recent prime example.
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