Pilot Error After ‘Sierra Hotel [SH-T HOT] Break’ F-35C Crash

[Courtney Mil]

Then you wouldn’t get it when training to do “touch and goes”.

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by Smilin_Ed

If circumstances put you in a position where you cannot execute a safe landing, on a ship or on a field, the Sierra Hotel thing to do is to go around before you get "in the groove,"

There is no approach that is too beautiful, nor too ugly, to wave off. The Wave Off is an equal opportunity move.

[Mogwi]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50

There is no approach that is too beautiful, nor too ugly, to wave off. The Wave Off is an equal opportunity move.

Absolutely true - except when you are on your last few pounds of gas. Once hit the deck, from a straight-in glide from 90 miles, with less than 90secs worth of fuel. Only reason I got back was that I had fired both ‘winders and emptied the guns. One of the (few) advantages of VL (or SRVL).

Mog

[SpazSinbad]

Originally Posted by sycamore

Perhaps the APD/DFP need to be engaged automatically when the gear and hook are extended, but can be turned OFF, manually when `Brains` wants to prove he is `SH-T HOT`.....and confirmed by the LSO on getting `in the groove`...

For some half a century USN aircraft have had a HOOK BYPASS SWITCH of some kind (the A4G was manually operated by the ground crew outside the cockpit - before FCLP/MADDLS for example). Anyhoo that mechanism as seen in the Super Hornet NATOPS may provide a way:
(I have no access to the F-35C NATOPS however I'll imagine its HBS may have similar characteristics?)

NATOPS FLIGHT MANUAL NAVY MODEL F/A-18E/F 165533 AND UP AIRCRAFT 15 Sep 2008
https://info.publicintelligence.net/F18-EF-000.pdf (19.4Mb)
"...2.6.1.5 Approach Lights. The approach lights, located on the nose gear strut, provide AOA indications to an LSO during carrier landings. Three approach lights are provided to indicate a fast (red), on-speed (amber), or slow (green) AOA condition. The approach lights are powered with WoffW and all landing gear down and locked. Therefore, the approach lights are an external indication that the landing gear are down and locked. The approach lights flash when the HOOK BYPASS switch is in the CARRIER position and the arresting hook is not down, indicating to an LSO that the hook must be lowered for a carrier arrestment. The approach lights are dimmed by the WARN/CAUT lights knob.

2.6.1.6 HOOK BYPASS Switch. The HOOK BYPASS switch, located on the lower left main instrument panel, is spring loaded to the CARRIER position and is electrically held in the FIELD position.

FIELD Approach lights and AOA indexers do not flash regardless of hook position. The switch reverts to the CARRIER position if the hook is lowered.

CARRIER Approach lights and AOA indexers flash if the hook is not down..."
&
"...2.18.6 Angle Of Attack Indexer. The angle of attack indexer is mounted to the left of the HUD. It displays approach angle of attack (AOA) with lighted symbols; corresponding AOA indications are shown on the HUD. The indexer operates with the landing gear down and locked and weight off the gear. The lighted symbol(s) flash if the arresting hook is up and the hook bypass switch, on the left vertical panel, is in CARRIER. The symbols will not flash with the arresting hook up and the hook bypass switch in FIELD. The switch is solenoid held to FIELD and automatically goes to CARRIER when the arresting hook is lowered or aircraft power is removed. The AOA indexer knob on the HUD controls dimming of the symbols. All symbols light when the lights test switch on the interior lights control panel is held to TEST...."

[Courtney Mil]

Hear hear. No excuse for lack of basic airmanship, or failing to maintain essential skills. No one that smacks their jet into the ramp or undershoot has any place flying the aircraft.

[megan]

No one that smacks their jet into the ramp or undershoot has any place flying the aircraft

Don't think you appreciate the difficulties that can arise operating onto a deck CM. 13 kill WWII ace and experienced test pilot Cdr. George Chamberlain Duncan carrying out suitability trials of the F9F came to grief, returned to flying six months later, and a long distinguished naval career. Spaz is an experienced A-4 deck operator and could comment.

You Tube

[SpazSinbad]

Meanwhile ALL YOUSE Need to know 'bout NavAv & SuchLike....

FREE no need to register DIRECT DOWNLOAD URL below:

A4G-RANFAAaircraftOthers01mar23p20,032.pdf (3.6Gb)
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AuYHBzTWY83LgZI-...pqk0Q?e=zkRhDX

Download instructions: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/our-history/spazsinbad-a4g/

Probably earlier PDF link is still there but download/viewing instructions still good.

[Courtney Mil]

I’m not convinced that 600 hours A-4 over half a century ago on the infamous Melbourne is the best basis for comment on 21st century carrier ops. But none of that has anything to do with basic pilot skills especially landing an aircraft that is highly automated on a modern carrier in fair weather, especially when it comes to recognising and rejecting a failed approach.-

[SpazSinbad]

Thanks for reading my material. 'Infamous Melbourne'? Half a century ago - certainly - hence I could not possibly comment. What is your expertise in naval aviation to comment and how long ago? You have an opinion. I have my opinion but not stated here.

[fdr]

Originally Posted by SpazSinbad

Thanks for reading my material. 'Infamous Melbourne'? Half a century ago - certainly - hence I could not possibly comment. What is your expertise in naval aviation to comment and how long ago? You have an opinion. I have my opinion but not stated here.

"Stone nose... "; was more comfortable for a SeaKing arrival than yon' A-4G I'd wager

Spaz, were you the carriers propeller observer? it was around your time. Always thought it was an impressive bit of lateral thinking to check out the biologic growth level on the boat

[SpazSinbad]

Are you referring to 'ROCKY' Stone? I'm pleased he and his crew were OK. You would have to read 20K PDF pages (direct link above) or 19K is still available at the FAAAA website.

[megan]

No one that smacks their jet into the ramp or undershoot has any place flying the aircraft

With your obviously superior knowledge CM you might offer your services to the USN since ramp strikes feature heavily in their accident statistics. My personal experience is limited to the USS Lexington on an absolutely beautiful day, calm seas, in a T-28 for 7 arrests, 4 touch and goes, 1 bolter, not experienced, but an insight. Naval aviation is the only service I've heard of where the stress gets to folks where they voluntarily hand their wings in, USN study of Vietnam pilots found their stress levels were higher at the boat than when subject to AA and SAMs.

[SpazSinbad]

Stress Levels Prolly HIGH bekuz the LSO '1 wire' debriefs could be FEARSOME.
LSO Debrief HMS Eagle 'On The Roger' 1968

You Tube

[SASless]

Megan,

Imagine getting amped up landing back aboard your Bird Farm AFTER dodging flak of all kinds, and evading lots of SAM's...and Mig-17's and Mig-21's .

Sorta puts some perspective into this carrier landing thing don't it?

Then.....you can add night, bad weather, and rough seas into the mix as well......even Jake Grafton had his own moments of difficulty landing back onboard his ship.

After all....he was who books were written about.

[Easy Street]

Originally Posted by SASless

Imagine getting amped up landing back aboard your Bird Farm AFTER dodging flak of all kinds, and evading lots of SAM's...and Mig-17's and Mig-21's .

Sorta puts some perspective into this carrier landing thing don't it?

Then.....you can add night, bad weather, and rough seas into the mix as well.....

Which is why I find it very curious that some experienced voices in this thread seem to think that automating (with no need for manual back up) some or all of this exceptionally difficult task is a bad thing!!

[Mogwi]

Ramp strikes are not a new phenomenon. This is Mogwi Snr about to take the barrier after a ramp strike on HMS Indefatigable. He had just shot down a Japanese Emily but the rear gunner put a round through his glycol tank and the donk quit short finals.

Mog

[SpazSinbad]

Reminds me of this photo: https://www.docdroid.net/kooBMJE/roy...rbook-1988.pdf "Carrier operations were always precarious - as shown by this 809 Squadron aircraft hitting the barrier on HMS Stalker. P.H.T. Green Collection"

[SpazSinbad]

AIRCRAFT ARRESTOR NET [RN FAA F-4K Phantom Mockup Barricade Test]

You Tube

[SpazSinbad]

As one does wandering thru the 20K pages this gem about FireFightin' VeHicles of old was found but the 'PADDLES MONTHLY' May 2011 USN LSO news letter is no longer available online: http://www.hrana.org/documents/Paddl...hlyMay2011.pdf
On page 2 of the MISHAP report: "...(3) To ensure survivability of the upwind Mobile Firefighting Vehicle (MFFV) and its ability to help respond to a crash in the landing area, position upwind MFFV away from the foul line...." Some lessons need to be learned and relearned.... (see GIF)



PROWLER duz somethin' simla'? (I'll have to find the URL for APPROACH Nov-Dec 2007)

[Ascend Charlie]

The readers here might not appreciate how bluddy small the Melbourne was, and the balls of stainless steel needed to lob an A4 or a Tracker onto that deck. Add some seas, darkness, weather and such and the stress would be measured on the Richter scale.

A tale is told of the Oz A4 pilots being invited to shoot some approaches to a US carrier, may have been Enterprise, forgotten now. They had some fun and marvelled at the room available. Our boys invited the Yanks to come to the Melbourne for a return favour, but when they saw the size, they politely refused and went home.