The true state of play of the German military
On the other hand with the next generation currently being in development I don't expect for example the German Army to order current generation tanks in quantities anymore. I just hope they order a big enough amount of the Leo 3 initially that an efficient production line can be set up. But it will be interesting to see what happens with the Leo 2 now taken from the German Army inventory. If it will be backfilled. And where to take the tanks for the backfilling from (assuming Poland will over time give all of its Leo 2 to Ukraine). I don't think they are currently producing new tubs.
I think they do.
https://www.kmweg.com/systems-produc...n-battle-tank/
https://www.kmweg.com/systems-produc...n-battle-tank/
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You beat me to it. Not sure how quickly they are manufacturing currently but you can bet some one will be looking to improve it.
Cheers
Mr Mac
You beat me to it. Not sure how quickly they are manufacturing currently but you can bet some one will be looking to improve it.
Cheers
Mr Mac
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Germany no longer builds new hulls, but instead refurbishes and upgrades existing Leopard 2 hulls from stocks to new standards. As far as all upgrades are modular any existing Leopard 2 tank can be upgraded to the latest standard. By 2022 hulls of this tank were still manufactured in Greece.
Feb 16, 2022 So I don't know how far this progressed
According Ptisi magazine, KMW, in collaboration with Rheinmetall, are proposing in Greece a package of agreements based on a common point of interest, which can go as far as the construction of a Leopard 2 assembly / production line in Greece, utilizing the existing infrastructure, since such does not exist. This line will also serve the reconstruction of the Greek Leo 2A4 at a higher level, up to the Leo 2A7, if this is finally deemed economically feasible.
The homogenization of the fleet of the Greek Leopard 2 Leo 2A7, allows Greece to develop into the main user Leopard 2A7 worldwide.
However, in addition to the main upgrade program of the Leopard 2A4, the German side is said to propose the participation of Greece in the TOMA Lynx program, while on the table is the acquisition of a large number of used armor of various types, which are now in storage in Germany, including significant quantities of Marder 1A3.
The homogenization of the fleet of the Greek Leopard 2 Leo 2A7, allows Greece to develop into the main user Leopard 2A7 worldwide.
However, in addition to the main upgrade program of the Leopard 2A4, the German side is said to propose the participation of Greece in the TOMA Lynx program, while on the table is the acquisition of a large number of used armor of various types, which are now in storage in Germany, including significant quantities of Marder 1A3.
The so-called EU Army is/was really a mechanism to divert even more EU funds into their military firms as they knew they couldnt get enough past the beancounters directly so they tried to split the money into the local funds plus 'EU Army funds'. At least the French were willing to export widely wheres my impression is that Germany didnt like to. Dealing with KMW on a certain overseas deal was interesting as they went into it with eyes firmly shut and I would be very surprised if they actually made any money on it.
They are not permitted to export arms into war zones. Or they hadn't been permitted until now. This is why they look for cooperation projects where the partner can do the exporting part with less domestic restrictions.
Concerning armaments: They have a history of wanting super ambitious things that get costly over time - with politicians stepping on the brakes after a while - which leads to rework and scaling down - that again gets the costs higher and the schedules delayed - for a not fully featured product finally. They ended up buying Pret-a-porter F-35s, Chinooks and P-9s recently.
Whenever they finish arms projects they get some nice kit if you look at submarines, trucks, tanks or rifles.
Concerning armaments: They have a history of wanting super ambitious things that get costly over time - with politicians stepping on the brakes after a while - which leads to rework and scaling down - that again gets the costs higher and the schedules delayed - for a not fully featured product finally. They ended up buying Pret-a-porter F-35s, Chinooks and P-9s recently.
Whenever they finish arms projects they get some nice kit if you look at submarines, trucks, tanks or rifles.
Honestly, I have no clue why they stick to the class number 212.
To give you an idea about the difference between the two Types of 212s:
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...e-much-larger/
Last edited by henra; 29th Jan 2023 at 08:19.
They are developing class 212CD for German Navy and Norway, which will effectively be a completely new boat which has little in common with the 212/212A apart from the number. Much bigger (more than 50% heavier), different shape (Diamond Shape), different drive tech being investigated but in any case two Diesel engines instead of one.
Honestly, I have no clue why they stick to the class number 212.
Honestly, I have no clue why they stick to the class number 212.
At the risk of thinking the unthinkable, is it possible that the days of the tank are numbered?
surely one of the learnings from the conflict is that they are vulnerable to man-portable weapons and drones? The cost benefit equation even for old tech tanks isn’t good, and presumably only gets worse the more the tank costs.
The forthcoming arrival of Challenger 2, Leopard 2 and Abrams on the battlefield will no doubt be hugely informative for strategists, wargamers, and arms manufacturers everywhere, but for me the jury is still out on whether it will be a decisive turn of events. One of those rare occasions where I would be happy to be proved wrong……
surely one of the learnings from the conflict is that they are vulnerable to man-portable weapons and drones? The cost benefit equation even for old tech tanks isn’t good, and presumably only gets worse the more the tank costs.
The forthcoming arrival of Challenger 2, Leopard 2 and Abrams on the battlefield will no doubt be hugely informative for strategists, wargamers, and arms manufacturers everywhere, but for me the jury is still out on whether it will be a decisive turn of events. One of those rare occasions where I would be happy to be proved wrong……
well I guess the West gets to test the theories and find out if there are issues well in advance of having to use them elsewhere
and before investing in a whole new fleet of armour as well
and before investing in a whole new fleet of armour as well
well I guess the West gets to test the theories
To some extent. But many Luftwaffe fighter pilots resented the ex-Condor Legion old boys' clique, who they termed 'The Spaniards', who thought that they knew everything. For example, Galland was against having radio in fighters - wing waggles and pre-flight briefs had worked OK in Spain, so should suffice elsewhere....
I guess it's a bit yes and no at the same time. With shoulder fired ATGM you can defend very well against attacking tanks. But you can't Counter- attack. That is why Ukraine now need tanks despite having the best ATGM at their disposal. To advance in the opposite direction. Drones like the Bayraktar can only operate if the tank force doesn't have suitable Surface2Air capabilites or fighter cover. Against a well eqipped opponent who knows what he is doing the Bayraktar and similar slow unstealthy drones are close to worthless. A tank being part of a modern, well equipped and trained combined arms force will probably remain relevant. A tank all on its own not. Therefore don't extrapolate the (mediocre to put it mildly) performance of the Russian Forces (especially at the beginning) to every other Army.
" Against a well eqipped opponent who knows what he is doing the Bayraktar and similar slow unstealthy drones are close to worthless."
has that been proven in action? I seem to remember they've done well in every real fight they've been deployed
has that been proven in action? I seem to remember they've done well in every real fight they've been deployed
They won't survive an encounter with an IRIS-T SLx or NASAMS or similar. And neither with an AESA or modern conventional RADAR equipped fighter. Azerbaidschan during the entire conflict and Russia at the beginning of the war are no good examples for well organised combined arms with working Air Defence. In the meantime Russia seems to have gotten its act better sorted in that regard. The TB2 don't seem to play any role around Bakhmut any more.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e...ssia-bmxbc22gc
Europe’s muddled armed forces ‘could be washed away by Russia
’Europe is not prepared for a war with Russia and is in danger of being “washed away” in a conflict, much as the Holy Roman Empire was broken up by Napoleon, Germany’s pre-eminent military historian has warned.
At a high-level defence conference in Berlin, several German generals also suggested that Nato might be unable to win the “first battle” in a defensive war on its eastern flank, because it would struggle to ship sufficient numbers of troops and equipment to the front line quickly enough.
Sönke Neitzel, professor of military history at Potsdam University and the leading academic authority on the modern German armed forces, described the logistics as a “nightmare” and said it could take at least 15 years before Germany was ready for war.
He pointed out that troop numbers were in decline and fell at least 30,000 short of the 203,000 target strength, while the country needed another 60,000 reservists in addition to the 34,000 it has.
“We need more money. We need more personnel. And there are limits in politics,” Neitzel told the Berlin Security Conference. “We can’t exclude that the Bundeswehr [German armed forces] will have to fight.
“We are going to stand by the coffins at the soldiers’ graves and we are going to be asked: ‘What have you done?’ We will have to explain to the mothers and the fathers why the soldiers could not fulfil their jobs. And at the moment we can only die gallantly if there’s a war.
“It’s very clear: if our armed forces are going to fight, they will die without drones, air defences, without enough supplies. Are we now clear enough on our message [to Germany’s leaders]? They are going to die and it’s your responsibility.”
The Bundeswehr has been shaken by the Russian assault on Ukraine, which led the head of the army to lament that his soldiers had been left “naked” and unable to fulfil obligations to their Nato allies after years of cuts and muddled doctrines. In response, the government is spending €100 billion on fixing the gaps in its military and last week set out an ambition to become the “backbone” and chief logistical “turntable” of Nato’s efforts to deter a Russian invasion.
Boris Pistorius, the defence minister, has called for Germany to become kriegstüchtig (capable of war), a deliberately provocative term in a country where 71 per cent of voters reject the state’s new aim to assume a “leadership role” in the defence of Europe.
On Thursday he told the conference that the idea of creating a European army was “off the table”, as the continent’s powers try instead to take on a more serious role within Nato. “It’s time to lift the mental blockade that somehow Germany shouldn’t be a leader in defence and deterrence,” he said. “We all need to become kriegstüchtig. Deterrence is like oxygen: you don’t notice it until it’s gone. We want peace — we have to prepare for war.”…
A number of Bundeswehr generals and military experts pointed to deep structural problems standing in the way, including a shortage of troops, heavily depleted ammunition stocks and the difficulty of moving as many as 300,000 Nato soldiers up to a thousand miles from Germany to the front.
Some insiders also fear that regular military spending and arms deliveries to Ukraine could be cut back as the country’s political leaders struggle to resolve a budget crisis.
“We need to wake this country up, and probably not just this country. I think it’s true for most of the European democracies,” said Brigadier-General Tilo Maedler, chief of staff in the Bundeswehr’s homeland defence command.
“We really must overcome our old optimistic view of the terminal peace [after the end of the Cold War in Europe]. It was a nice dream, but the dream is over and we have to face reality. This country, and not just this country, needs to do a lot more for the stability of peace and democracy.”….
One of the toughest problems coming into focus is logistics. Many senior European commanders bemoaned the complexity of building up sufficient stocks of war materiel and moving soldiers and equipment through a legal system so tangled that armoured vehicles face separate rules and permits in each of Germany’s 16 states.
“If we have bureaucracy in place that prevents this agile movement, then we have a real problem not to lose the first battle [against Russia],” said Lieutenant-General Alexander Sollfrank, the German head of Nato’s new central logistics hub in Ulm. “And the other side knows exactly where our limitations are and what our obstacles are.”
Neitzel said he had visited Nato’s headquarters in Brussels last week and despaired at the way various allied states still had mutually incompatible ammunition. “This always reminds me of the story of the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation, how they had to react to Napoleon and they couldn’t agree on anything,” he said. “And they were washed away. Historical structures can be washed away. That’s the lesson from history.
“So we have to act and we have to enable Alexander Sollfrank [in charge of Nato logistics] to do his job, so that our soldiers are not going to die and we can win the first battle.”….
Europe’s muddled armed forces ‘could be washed away by Russia
’Europe is not prepared for a war with Russia and is in danger of being “washed away” in a conflict, much as the Holy Roman Empire was broken up by Napoleon, Germany’s pre-eminent military historian has warned.
At a high-level defence conference in Berlin, several German generals also suggested that Nato might be unable to win the “first battle” in a defensive war on its eastern flank, because it would struggle to ship sufficient numbers of troops and equipment to the front line quickly enough.
Sönke Neitzel, professor of military history at Potsdam University and the leading academic authority on the modern German armed forces, described the logistics as a “nightmare” and said it could take at least 15 years before Germany was ready for war.
He pointed out that troop numbers were in decline and fell at least 30,000 short of the 203,000 target strength, while the country needed another 60,000 reservists in addition to the 34,000 it has.
“We need more money. We need more personnel. And there are limits in politics,” Neitzel told the Berlin Security Conference. “We can’t exclude that the Bundeswehr [German armed forces] will have to fight.
“We are going to stand by the coffins at the soldiers’ graves and we are going to be asked: ‘What have you done?’ We will have to explain to the mothers and the fathers why the soldiers could not fulfil their jobs. And at the moment we can only die gallantly if there’s a war.
“It’s very clear: if our armed forces are going to fight, they will die without drones, air defences, without enough supplies. Are we now clear enough on our message [to Germany’s leaders]? They are going to die and it’s your responsibility.”
The Bundeswehr has been shaken by the Russian assault on Ukraine, which led the head of the army to lament that his soldiers had been left “naked” and unable to fulfil obligations to their Nato allies after years of cuts and muddled doctrines. In response, the government is spending €100 billion on fixing the gaps in its military and last week set out an ambition to become the “backbone” and chief logistical “turntable” of Nato’s efforts to deter a Russian invasion.
Boris Pistorius, the defence minister, has called for Germany to become kriegstüchtig (capable of war), a deliberately provocative term in a country where 71 per cent of voters reject the state’s new aim to assume a “leadership role” in the defence of Europe.
On Thursday he told the conference that the idea of creating a European army was “off the table”, as the continent’s powers try instead to take on a more serious role within Nato. “It’s time to lift the mental blockade that somehow Germany shouldn’t be a leader in defence and deterrence,” he said. “We all need to become kriegstüchtig. Deterrence is like oxygen: you don’t notice it until it’s gone. We want peace — we have to prepare for war.”…
A number of Bundeswehr generals and military experts pointed to deep structural problems standing in the way, including a shortage of troops, heavily depleted ammunition stocks and the difficulty of moving as many as 300,000 Nato soldiers up to a thousand miles from Germany to the front.
Some insiders also fear that regular military spending and arms deliveries to Ukraine could be cut back as the country’s political leaders struggle to resolve a budget crisis.
“We need to wake this country up, and probably not just this country. I think it’s true for most of the European democracies,” said Brigadier-General Tilo Maedler, chief of staff in the Bundeswehr’s homeland defence command.
“We really must overcome our old optimistic view of the terminal peace [after the end of the Cold War in Europe]. It was a nice dream, but the dream is over and we have to face reality. This country, and not just this country, needs to do a lot more for the stability of peace and democracy.”….
One of the toughest problems coming into focus is logistics. Many senior European commanders bemoaned the complexity of building up sufficient stocks of war materiel and moving soldiers and equipment through a legal system so tangled that armoured vehicles face separate rules and permits in each of Germany’s 16 states.
“If we have bureaucracy in place that prevents this agile movement, then we have a real problem not to lose the first battle [against Russia],” said Lieutenant-General Alexander Sollfrank, the German head of Nato’s new central logistics hub in Ulm. “And the other side knows exactly where our limitations are and what our obstacles are.”
Neitzel said he had visited Nato’s headquarters in Brussels last week and despaired at the way various allied states still had mutually incompatible ammunition. “This always reminds me of the story of the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation, how they had to react to Napoleon and they couldn’t agree on anything,” he said. “And they were washed away. Historical structures can be washed away. That’s the lesson from history.
“So we have to act and we have to enable Alexander Sollfrank [in charge of Nato logistics] to do his job, so that our soldiers are not going to die and we can win the first battle.”….
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.stripes.com/theaters/eur...-12478191.html
German army ‘too thin’ on resources to make Lithuania brigade viable, leader says
https://kyivindependent.com/fm-kuleb...to-fight-wars/
Ukraine’s Foreign Minister Kuleba: 'Europe doesn't know how to fight wars'
Both the Dutch military and society as a whole need to brace themselves for the possibility of a war with Russia, said Lieutenant-General Martin Wijnen, the departing Commander of the Royal Netherlands Army, - The Telegraaf
German army ‘too thin’ on resources to make Lithuania brigade viable, leader says
https://kyivindependent.com/fm-kuleb...to-fight-wars/
Ukraine’s Foreign Minister Kuleba: 'Europe doesn't know how to fight wars'
Both the Dutch military and society as a whole need to brace themselves for the possibility of a war with Russia, said Lieutenant-General Martin Wijnen, the departing Commander of the Royal Netherlands Army, - The Telegraaf
Last edited by ORAC; 28th Dec 2023 at 21:39.
https://www.stripes.com/theaters/eur...-12478191.html
German army ‘too thin’ on resources to make Lithuania brigade viable, leader says
German army ‘too thin’ on resources to make Lithuania brigade viable, leader says
Both the Dutch military and society as a whole need to brace themselves for the possibility of a war with Russia, said Lieutenant-General Martin Wijnen, the departing Commander of the Royal Netherlands Army, - The Telegraaf
