The true state of play of the German military

[henra]

Originally Posted by NutLoose

The bad thing is most of the West isn't churning out new Tanks, Russia is!

Or if they are producing new tanks it is in a largely manufactory process with very low output. There are simply not the orders in the hundreds and thousands anymore as it was in the 80's.
On the other hand with the next generation currently being in development I don't expect for example the German Army to order current generation tanks in quantities anymore. I just hope they order a big enough amount of the Leo 3 initially that an efficient production line can be set up. But it will be interesting to see what happens with the Leo 2 now taken from the German Army inventory. If it will be backfilled. And where to take the tanks for the backfilling from (assuming Poland will over time give all of its Leo 2 to Ukraine). I don't think they are currently producing new tubs.

[Less Hair]

I think they do.
https://www.kmweg.com/systems-produc...n-battle-tank/

[Mr Mac]

Less Hair
You beat me to it. Not sure how quickly they are manufacturing currently but you can bet some one will be looking to improve it.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[NutLoose]

Germany no longer builds new hulls, but instead refurbishes and upgrades existing Leopard 2 hulls from stocks to new standards. As far as all upgrades are modular any existing Leopard 2 tank can be upgraded to the latest standard. By 2022 hulls of this tank were still manufactured in Greece.

https://www.military-today.com/tanks/leopard_2.htm

Feb 16, 2022 So I don't know how far this progressed

According Ptisi magazine, KMW, in collaboration with Rheinmetall, are proposing in Greece a package of agreements based on a common point of interest, which can go as far as the construction of a Leopard 2 assembly / production line in Greece, utilizing the existing infrastructure, since such does not exist. This line will also serve the reconstruction of the Greek Leo 2A4 at a higher level, up to the Leo 2A7, if this is finally deemed economically feasible.
The homogenization of the fleet of the Greek Leopard 2 Leo 2A7, allows Greece to develop into the main user Leopard 2A7 worldwide.
However, in addition to the main upgrade program of the Leopard 2A4, the German side is said to propose the participation of Greece in the TOMA Lynx program, while on the table is the acquisition of a large number of used armor of various types, which are now in storage in Germany, including significant quantities of Marder 1A3.

[GrahamO]

Originally Posted by Less Hair

It would be better to find out why strategic assessments and arms programs went so wrong and who was behind it. Defence budgets were on record levels for years so it was not any lack of funding to blame. What they had was just not well spent.

Because like so many European states, they were determined to have their own world leading tech but werent big enough to actually invest enough. The Uk had to spend a lot harder to get its worth, and had a long track record with good ties to the USA. Germany, less so. When it comes to incubators, high tech, C4I, SigInt etc where high technology startups require an open investment culture, Germany isnt it. They have great lumps of metal but Silicon valley they are are not. If I recall it correctly, Germany only tried a couple of years ago to create a culture of silicon valley. I am sure the reasons are complex but their abhorrence of entrepreneurship without union control probably played a part in people not wanting to start anything up. Anyone wanting to do a start up, left the country.

The so-called EU Army is/was really a mechanism to divert even more EU funds into their military firms as they knew they couldnt get enough past the beancounters directly so they tried to split the money into the local funds plus 'EU Army funds'. At least the French were willing to export widely wheres my impression is that Germany didnt like to. Dealing with KMW on a certain overseas deal was interesting as they went into it with eyes firmly shut and I would be very surprised if they actually made any money on it.

[Less Hair]

They are not permitted to export arms into war zones. Or they hadn't been permitted until now. This is why they look for cooperation projects where the partner can do the exporting part with less domestic restrictions.

Concerning armaments: They have a history of wanting super ambitious things that get costly over time - with politicians stepping on the brakes after a while - which leads to rework and scaling down - that again gets the costs higher and the schedules delayed - for a not fully featured product finally. They ended up buying Pret-a-porter F-35s, Chinooks and P-9s recently.

Whenever they finish arms projects they get some nice kit if you look at submarines, trucks, tanks or rifles.

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by Less Hair

Whenever they finish arms projects they get some nice kit if you look at submarines, trucks, tanks or rifles.

Not sure if they have a follow on to the 212 class submarines, but that was/is a nice boat.

[henra]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50

Not sure if they have a follow on to the 212 class submarines, but that was/is a nice boat.

They are developing class 212CD for German Navy and Norway, which will effectively be a completely new boat which has little in common with the 212/212A apart from the number. Much bigger (more than 50% heavier), different shape (Diamond Shape), different drive tech being investigated but in any case two Diesel engines instead of one.
Honestly, I have no clue why they stick to the class number 212.

To give you an idea about the difference between the two Types of 212s:
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...e-much-larger/

[kiwi grey]

Originally Posted by henra

They are developing class 212CD for German Navy and Norway, which will effectively be a completely new boat which has little in common with the 212/212A apart from the number. Much bigger (more than 50% heavier), different shape (Diamond Shape), different drive tech being investigated but in any case two Diesel engines instead of one.
Honestly, I have no clue why they stick to the class number 212.

Maybe for the same reason that navies (including the RN) are buying ships displacing as much as a WW2 light cruiser and calling them "frigates"

[falcon900]

At the risk of thinking the unthinkable, is it possible that the days of the tank are numbered?
surely one of the learnings from the conflict is that they are vulnerable to man-portable weapons and drones? The cost benefit equation even for old tech tanks isn’t good, and presumably only gets worse the more the tank costs.
The forthcoming arrival of Challenger 2, Leopard 2 and Abrams on the battlefield will no doubt be hugely informative for strategists, wargamers, and arms manufacturers everywhere, but for me the jury is still out on whether it will be a decisive turn of events. One of those rare occasions where I would be happy to be proved wrong……

[Asturias56]

well I guess the West gets to test the theories and find out if there are issues well in advance of having to use them elsewhere

and before investing in a whole new fleet of armour as well

[India Four Two]

well I guess the West gets to test the theories

​​​​​​​I was thinking along the same lines. A bit like the Luftwaffe getting operational experience in Spain pre-WWII.

[BEagle]

Originally Posted by India Four Two

​​​​​​​I was thinking along the same lines. A bit like the Luftwaffe getting operational experience in Spain pre-WWII.

To some extent. But many Luftwaffe fighter pilots resented the ex-Condor Legion old boys' clique, who they termed 'The Spaniards', who thought that they knew everything. For example, Galland was against having radio in fighters - wing waggles and pre-flight briefs had worked OK in Spain, so should suffice elsewhere....

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by BEagle

To some extent. But many Luftwaffe fighter pilots resented the ex-Condor Legion old boys' clique, who they termed 'The Spaniards', who thought that they knew everything. For example, Galland was against having radio in fighters - wing waggles and pre-flight briefs had worked OK in Spain, so should suffice elsewhere....

Galland flew open cockpit He-51 biplanes in Spain, so likely didn't even have radio's fitted?

[henra]

Originally Posted by falcon900

At the risk of thinking the unthinkable, is it possible that the days of the tank are numbered?
surely one of the learnings from the conflict is that they are vulnerable to man-portable weapons and drones?

I guess it's a bit yes and no at the same time. With shoulder fired ATGM you can defend very well against attacking tanks. But you can't Counter- attack. That is why Ukraine now need tanks despite having the best ATGM at their disposal. To advance in the opposite direction. Drones like the Bayraktar can only operate if the tank force doesn't have suitable Surface2Air capabilites or fighter cover. Against a well eqipped opponent who knows what he is doing the Bayraktar and similar slow unstealthy drones are close to worthless. A tank being part of a modern, well equipped and trained combined arms force will probably remain relevant. A tank all on its own not. Therefore don't extrapolate the (mediocre to put it mildly) performance of the Russian Forces (especially at the beginning) to every other Army.

[Asturias56]

" Against a well eqipped opponent who knows what he is doing the Bayraktar and similar slow unstealthy drones are close to worthless."

has that been proven in action? I seem to remember they've done well in every real fight they've been deployed

[henra]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

has that been proven in action? I seem to remember they've done well in every real fight they've been deployed

They won't survive an encounter with an IRIS-T SLx or NASAMS or similar. And neither with an AESA or modern conventional RADAR equipped fighter. Azerbaidschan during the entire conflict and Russia at the beginning of the war are no good examples for well organised combined arms with working Air Defence. In the meantime Russia seems to have gotten its act better sorted in that regard. The TB2 don't seem to play any role around Bakhmut any more.