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inews - 'RAF admits Ďurgentí need to solve shortage of trained pilots''

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inews - 'RAF admits Ďurgentí need to solve shortage of trained pilots''

Old 19th Jan 2023, 22:37
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Originally Posted by Darkmouse View Post
That wasn't an insult, just a fact. But yes, I'm out, I've said my piece.

Yer guns are frozen, roll over and dive awayÖ


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Old 20th Jan 2023, 09:22
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Originally Posted by alfred_the_great View Post
Well, given a member of my team has been selected for FJ training, with a total anticipated hold of less than 12 months - at least until OCU - I imagine facts are thin on the ground in this thread.
Theyíre very lucky then: is not uncommon for there to be years between end of IOT and start of EFT
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 21:03
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Originally Posted by downsizer View Post
You meant to say forum right? Not thread...?
Not the first time Alfred has come across all confused and irrelevant,🤭
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 11:04
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Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, has revealed that at one point last year that the UK had more F35 Lightning II stealth fighter jets than it had pilots to fly them...
In war, wouldn't one expect the proportional loss of jets to be greater than the proportional loss of pilots?
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 12:14
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depends where they're shot down
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 19:57
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I joined the RAF just over 30 years ago and I have seen recruting ebb and flow since that time - the pipeline has been turned on and off more times than I care to remember due to various reviews, budget cuts, fleet cuts (Seaking, Wessex, Andover, VC10, Tristar, HS125, BA146, Nimrod, Jaguar, Buccaneer, Phantom, Harrier, Tornado all met their demise during my time, and Hercules, Puma, B412, B212 and A109 (army) are all about to suffer imminent retirement. I can see why forecasting numbers might be an educated look into a crystal ball.

However, to fix the issue of retention, I have heard a consistent message from the 'higher up's' over those 30+ years...'money is not the answer'.

I disagree completely. Everything else that has been tried has not worked, so given that their airships clearly do not know what the answer is, how can they be so sure what it is not?
Let me be very clear - I left for money - I saw what guys were earning outside and got sick of being taken advantage of. Many of my colleagues left for money, indeed I have 3 good mates who all left because they got divorced, got cleaned out, and needed their gratuity to kickstart their life again. The pay in the RAF is absolutely derisory - it is frankly disgusting it is so low. I left to work for a major North American Defence Company and we hire new engineering and software grads straight out of Uni. on more than a 1st year Group Captain is paid, with unlimited flexible vacation, and yes, you read that right - there is no limit to how much vacation you can take - it is a big thing over here. My salary as a PA pilot tripled when I left and has climbed significantly since, and my life is my own - if you leave the RAF and also leave the cockpit, there is serious money to be made and a far better life to lead.

I have spoken to my friends back in the UK recently and most agreed that we would rejoin the RAF, and step back into the cockpit, if the pay was right. Money would get me back, and it would get 4 of the 5 guys I spoke to back - but I do mean money. My price would be 450k per year, and I would be able to give 7 years service until 60. Is this ever going to happen - of course not, but to just say 'money is not the answer' is a stupid, blinkered and ignorant viewpoint. If the RAF paid 500k per year, do you think they would have a retention issue? If not, then money IS the answer, the question is just how much.

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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 21:00
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Originally Posted by Baldeep Inminj View Post

I have spoken to my friends back in the UK recently and most agreed that we would rejoin the RAF, and step back into the cockpit, if the pay was right. Money would get me back, and it would get 4 of the 5 guys I spoke to back - but I do mean money. My price would be 450k per year, and I would be able to give 7 years service until 60. Is this ever going to happen - of course not, but to just say 'money is not the answer' is a stupid, blinkered and ignorant viewpoint. If the RAF paid 500k per year, do you think they would have a retention issue? If not, then money IS the answer, the question is just how much.

Never work. You are looking at a common-sense logical approach to a question that has had the answer for years but ignored and when has that ever worked in the halls of Government? Sky Guardians Britain's Airforce 1918-1993 (book) looked at retention against the cost of training etc. In one of its chapters, it stated something along the lines that if you gave a million pounds retention bonus it would make a difference to those leaving for greener pastures. This would help the experience level to be retained, reducing accidents, reduce training numbers/requirements and costs to an extent that the money spent would actually end up on the credit side of the ledger. Although sounding like a significant amount of money it was a sign on for something like 10 years (may have been more) and then when the tax man took their piece it was more like 40K (?) a year. The RAAF had a retention bonus, back in the 90's, of 3 and 5 years, if memory serves, which also suffered from the tax man. Effectively speaking once, the tax man took their bite you still would be in front after joining a commercial airline after 12 odd months. All this did was allow the ones that were staying to buy a new car. As long as people are walking in the doors the ones walking out are not an issue until the tarmac is filled with aircraft without aircrew. The people holding the purse strings cannot see that by retaining people we do not need to recruit as many (saving money) do not need to train as many (saving money) retain a high level of experience at the squadrons (saving money on the number doing conversion, on accidents, on reinventing the wheel). Yes, the drawbacks are the promotional stagnation and limited new blood but if you are honestly talking about the end product of an effective and fully crewed operational squadron that is able to fulfill its task than the drawbacks are negligible.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 21:31
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In addition to all the issues outlined above, the next week will see significant obstacles to progress, in the shape of negative Hawk T2 availability at Valley.
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 00:17
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My price would be 450k per year
keep smoking that weed man…

That would be one of the highest paid roles in the public sector. In the Services you would be on a higher salary than CDS! Who gets paid £270k-£290k per year, or his Chiefs on £190k-£213k per year. It would be nearly 4 times what we pay an AOC!

So, with your suggestion of £450k each Pilot and the best part of what must be 1,000 or so in front line flying jobs - you have just blown nearly 1% (£0.45Bn) of the UK Defence Budget (roughly £45Bn) on 1,000 of the 140,000 Services’ personnel. That’s before you add all of the extras, like pension, healthcare, subsidised accommodation, school allowances, travel allowances, etc… You can probably make that 1.5%-2% of the Defence Budget. Yeah, that’s going to happen isn’t it?

Also, can you imagine the furore and demonisation of our people in the press and social media earning such a salary? Be prepared to become one of the most hated and envied professions in the land.

Personally, my pay and pension is relatively fair - it could be a little better, but hey, that’s life. I don’t do it to get rich, I live comfortably and I am proud to serve the way I do. I’ve had some phenomenal experiences that some will never get to witness. I’ve had 2 marriages and I don’t feel the need to prostitute myself for every last penny that I can get. I remember why I joined in the first place, many don’t.
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 01:03
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Full disclosure

LJ, havenít you previously, proudly, told us that your wife earns more than you? Does that have anything to do with why youíre not so bothered about how much the RAF pays you?

Sorry to be blunt but the question of whether or not money is the answer needs to be asked of the young people that are forced to live in parts of the country where their partners struggle to get well paid employment or are at home with the children in dilapidated married quarters. Letís not forget that most of them will complete two flying tours before they see any flying pay nowadays as well. Can you honestly imagine how it must feel to rock up at a Typhoon Squadron as a newly minted QWI knowing that youíre earning the same as OC catering (if such a role still exists but you get the point)?

There is no point asking people who are late in their careers, who donít have kids living at home and who have probably already paid off their mortgages. As far as the RAF is concerned those are the success stories but they are becoming increasingly rare.

What makes it very stark to me is the age of people I see taking up jobs in Defense companies in the Middle East and elsewhere. They used to be the preserve of people who already had their pensions. Increasingly now Iím seeing guys and girls with much fresher faces who didnít bother waiting around due to the new scheme. When the QWIs/QFIs complete their second tour and then leave Iíd say youíre in trouble.

BV
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 10:29
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet View Post
keep smoking that weed manÖ

That would be one of the highest paid roles in the public sector. In the Services you would be on a higher salary than CDS! Who gets paid £270k-£290k per year, or his Chiefs on £190k-£213k per year. It would be nearly 4 times what we pay an AOC!

So, with your suggestion of £450k each Pilot and the best part of what must be 1,000 or so in front line flying jobs - you have just blown nearly 1% (£0.45Bn) of the UK Defence Budget (roughly £45Bn) on 1,000 of the 140,000 Servicesí personnel. Thatís before you add all of the extras, like pension, healthcare, subsidised accommodation, school allowances, travel allowances, etcÖ You can probably make that 1.5%-2% of the Defence Budget. Yeah, thatís going to happen isnít it?

Also, can you imagine the furore and demonisation of our people in the press and social media earning such a salary? Be prepared to become one of the most hated and envied professions in the land.

Personally, my pay and pension is relatively fair - it could be a little better, but hey, thatís life. I donít do it to get rich, I live comfortably and I am proud to serve the way I do. Iíve had some phenomenal experiences that some will never get to witness. Iíve had 2 marriages and I donít feel the need to prostitute myself for every last penny that I can get. I remember why I joined in the first place, many donít.
I take it the 450K is Drachma.........
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 15:33
  #112 (permalink)  
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The pay in the RAF is absolutely derisory - it is frankly disgusting it is so low
Baldeep, as PA you were probably on about £80k, which is pretty good so don’t try to kid anyone here. You’ve clearly moved into a damn good job and that’s great for you but don’t try to tell us that what you’re on, or that of your new software guys, is normal. It’s way off normal, both in the UK and the US.
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 16:09
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Here's an Idea, let all pilots wear leather flying jackets to instil a nostaglia for the RAF of old, (at their own cost of course) to aid retention.... Ohh wait they already tried that one..

If anyone is on piss poor pay it is the RAF Engineers, made worse I believe as the experience no longer counts towards licences, ( I might be wrong on the latter part )
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 16:46
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Originally Posted by Baldeep Inminj View Post
I joined the RAF just over 30 years ago and I have seen recruting ebb and flow since that time - the pipeline has been turned on and off more times than I care to remember due to various reviews, budget cuts, fleet cuts (Seaking, Wessex, Andover, VC10, Tristar, HS125, BA146, Nimrod, Jaguar, Buccaneer, Phantom, Harrier, Tornado all met their demise during my time, and Hercules, Puma, B412, B212 and A109 (army) are all about to suffer imminent retirement. I can see why forecasting numbers might be an educated look into a crystal ball.

However, to fix the issue of retention, I have heard a consistent message from the 'higher up's' over those 30+ years...'money is not the answer'.

I disagree completely. Everything else that has been tried has not worked, so given that their airships clearly do not know what the answer is, how can they be so sure what it is not?
Let me be very clear - I left for money - I saw what guys were earning outside and got sick of being taken advantage of. Many of my colleagues left for money, indeed I have 3 good mates who all left because they got divorced, got cleaned out, and needed their gratuity to kickstart their life again. The pay in the RAF is absolutely derisory - it is frankly disgusting it is so low. I left to work for a major North American Defence Company and we hire new engineering and software grads straight out of Uni. on more than a 1st year Group Captain is paid, with unlimited flexible vacation, and yes, you read that right - there is no limit to how much vacation you can take - it is a big thing over here. My salary as a PA pilot tripled when I left and has climbed significantly since, and my life is my own - if you leave the RAF and also leave the cockpit, there is serious money to be made and a far better life to lead.

I have spoken to my friends back in the UK recently and most agreed that we would rejoin the RAF, and step back into the cockpit, if the pay was right. Money would get me back, and it would get 4 of the 5 guys I spoke to back - but I do mean money. My price would be 450k per year, and I would be able to give 7 years service until 60. Is this ever going to happen - of course not, but to just say 'money is not the answer' is a stupid, blinkered and ignorant viewpoint. If the RAF paid 500k per year, do you think they would have a retention issue? If not, then money IS the answer, the question is just how much.
Ma'am, thank you for your service. God bless.
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 16:48
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
LJ, havenít you previously, proudly, told us that your wife earns more than you? Does that have anything to do with why youíre not so bothered about how much the RAF pays you?

Sorry to be blunt but the question of whether or not money is the answer needs to be asked of the young people that are forced to live in parts of the country where their partners struggle to get well paid employment or are at home with the children in dilapidated married quarters. Letís not forget that most of them will complete two flying tours before they see any flying pay nowadays as well. Can you honestly imagine how it must feel to rock up at a Typhoon Squadron as a newly minted QWI knowing that youíre earning the same as OC catering (if such a role still exists but you get the point)?

There is no point asking people who are late in their careers, who donít have kids living at home and who have probably already paid off their mortgages. As far as the RAF is concerned those are the success stories but they are becoming increasingly rare.

What makes it very stark to me is the age of people I see taking up jobs in Defense companies in the Middle East and elsewhere. They used to be the preserve of people who already had their pensions. Increasingly now Iím seeing guys and girls with much fresher faces who didnít bother waiting around due to the new scheme. When the QWIs/QFIs complete their second tour and then leave Iíd say youíre in trouble.

BV
Bob, do not get personal. Nobody will really care about how much a spouse/ partner/ whatever earns. If LJ is happy with his job and remuneration then that is what counts.
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 17:29
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CB

Iím sorry if you, or LJ, deem my post as a personal sleight. However I, and many of my contemporaries, find it (past tense in my case) hard to listen to senior officers who are financially settled telling the minions how unimportant money is. And then they look down their noses at folks who leave for better paid jobs elsewhere. It just comes across a bit rich. Sorry if my honesty is unpalatable but it needs saying.

As for Baldeep, Iím very happy that you have found such well paid employment elsewhere but it is a little crass to discuss money so openly. Maybe the US habit of braggadocio has rubbed off on you.

BV
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 17:49
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
I’m sorry if you, or LJ, deem my post as a personal sleight. However I, and many of my contemporaries, find it (past tense in my case) hard to listen to senior officers who are financially settled telling the minions how unimportant money is. And then they look down their noses at folks who leave for better paid jobs elsewhere. It just comes across a bit rich. Sorry if my honesty is unpalatable but it needs saying.

As for Baldeep, I’m very happy that you have found such well paid employment elsewhere but it is a little crass to discuss money so openly. Maybe the US habit of braggadocio has rubbed off on you.

BV
cant help but think it’s not greener on big money. Lol, let’s raise a glass to her tonight!]
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 17:50
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Conscription or National Service?
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 18:07
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Originally Posted by uxb99 View Post
Conscription or National Service?
I had the last National Service airmen as Met Observers ........ most had deferred joining a little, all highly educated, brilliant at their jobs. The downside is that everyone had a Gozomey chart, or a row of 5 bar gate scratches, or a Chuff Factor [days to serve divided by days served].

Necessary until the early 1960s, but I just cannot envisage ever again, neither conscription nor National Service. Mass disobedience and an ungovernable country would ensue.
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 18:18
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As a recent PVR'eee money wasn't the only factor, it was one of many. The main driver for me was the amount of sh1t that had nothing to do with my actual job that I was spending time doing, or chasing my subordinates to do. You could have thrown more cash at me and it wouldn't have changed my mind, indeed I was offered promotion so I guess in a way they did.

So I left for a job with a decent defense company on more money than I was on (I actually asked for less, they came back with a bigger offer) with a much better quality of life.
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