Apache seat roles, UK vs. US
Thread Starter
Apache seat roles, UK vs. US
A question I've been meaning to ask for a while, having read one or two books about Apache operations. Prompted by recent news stories which I shall reference no further.
Asked *here* because it's a tolerant forum. But I know there's knowledge here.
My understanding is that in UK usage, the Apache is commanded from the front seat; commander also primarily responsible for weapons control. Back seat primarily responsible for flying. And that quite often front seat is a young officer and back seat an older NCO.
But I *think* that in US usage back seat does the flying *and* the commanding.
Is that right?
Asked *here* because it's a tolerant forum. But I know there's knowledge here.
My understanding is that in UK usage, the Apache is commanded from the front seat; commander also primarily responsible for weapons control. Back seat primarily responsible for flying. And that quite often front seat is a young officer and back seat an older NCO.
But I *think* that in US usage back seat does the flying *and* the commanding.
Is that right?
Son of Slot
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Super Senior Moderator
Well, that's a new type of question for our Cabin - but we have all sorts of SLF in here and someone may know the answer. Just imagine the PA, "Ladies & Gentleman, this is the Senior Cabin Manager speaking. Is there a member (or retired member) of an Apache helicopter crew on board? If so, please make yourself known to the crew."
“ Welcome to the front line ladies & gentlemen.
The battlezone is hot , the incoming is moderate to heavy “
(He evidently made a simple & honest mistake in posting , can you please move it to Military aviation?)
The battlezone is hot , the incoming is moderate to heavy “
(He evidently made a simple & honest mistake in posting , can you please move it to Military aviation?)
Comparing US to UK on a matter of this kind of subtle differences can be ticklish.
To begin with, since most of the US Army Helo Pilots are Warrant Officers, your cited UK "officer/other ranks" structure won't match.
While I am pretty sure that the Army requires the pilots to be qualified in both seats, it has been so many years since I was engaged in that kind of conversation with an Army colleague (about 20 years ago as we were checking out a few things Fort Rucker was doing that we might want to adapt in Milton, FL) that I will not attempt to speak for how the US Army does that.
To throw another curve ball at you (or a cricket spin bowl) when I was an aircraft commander in the SH-60B, what seat I sat in made no difference. I could sit in either the right seat (pilot station) or the left seat (Tactical station running the ASW/ASUW/EW kit) but I was still the Helicopter Aircraft Commander (HAC) regardless of which seat I occupied. However as that was USN and not US Army, that hardly helps your Apache(UK) to Apache(US) comparison.
I don't think "which seat you occupy" governs who the aircraft commander is. (Again, been years since I flew in an Army aircraft with an Army pilot alongside, so I just feel out of date ...)
To begin with, since most of the US Army Helo Pilots are Warrant Officers, your cited UK "officer/other ranks" structure won't match.
While I am pretty sure that the Army requires the pilots to be qualified in both seats, it has been so many years since I was engaged in that kind of conversation with an Army colleague (about 20 years ago as we were checking out a few things Fort Rucker was doing that we might want to adapt in Milton, FL) that I will not attempt to speak for how the US Army does that.
To throw another curve ball at you (or a cricket spin bowl) when I was an aircraft commander in the SH-60B, what seat I sat in made no difference. I could sit in either the right seat (pilot station) or the left seat (Tactical station running the ASW/ASUW/EW kit) but I was still the Helicopter Aircraft Commander (HAC) regardless of which seat I occupied. However as that was USN and not US Army, that hardly helps your Apache(UK) to Apache(US) comparison.
I don't think "which seat you occupy" governs who the aircraft commander is. (Again, been years since I flew in an Army aircraft with an Army pilot alongside, so I just feel out of date ...)
He is asking for a comparison of "Baked Beans" and "Pork and Beans"... British to American systems.
Same thing in the end but labeled differently.
US Army system is the Aircraft Commander's Rank does not determine that status....a Warrant Officer can be the Aircraft Commander with a Colonel as the Pilot.
It was not unusual for me as a CW2 to fly as the AC with my Company Commander (CO) as my Pilot.
They did not fly often and we usually placed them with an Instructor Pilot (IP) or a very experienced AC.
One was so dangerous we actually set up a Duty Roster to determine who flew with him as we wished to share that wonderful experience.
I would imagine the Apache crews generally have the AC in the rear seat flying the Helicopter and the Pilot/Gunner in the front seat doing the Navigation, and working the weapon systems.
Same thing in the end but labeled differently.
US Army system is the Aircraft Commander's Rank does not determine that status....a Warrant Officer can be the Aircraft Commander with a Colonel as the Pilot.
It was not unusual for me as a CW2 to fly as the AC with my Company Commander (CO) as my Pilot.
They did not fly often and we usually placed them with an Instructor Pilot (IP) or a very experienced AC.
One was so dangerous we actually set up a Duty Roster to determine who flew with him as we wished to share that wonderful experience.
I would imagine the Apache crews generally have the AC in the rear seat flying the Helicopter and the Pilot/Gunner in the front seat doing the Navigation, and working the weapon systems.
My understanding is that in UK usage, the Apache is commanded from the front seat; commander also primarily responsible for weapons control. Back seat primarily responsible for flying. And that quite often front seat is a young officer and back seat an older NCO.
I don't think "which seat you occupy" governs who the aircraft commander is
Pilots gen go in rear but both positions can be interchanged at liesure or on preference, both are trained pilots and gunners. it has been known to interchange. apache is dynamic platform....weapons System 
Thread Starter
Thanks for replies, which seem to confirm what I suggested - at least as far as UK use is concerned.
No "mistake" in my initial choice of forum: it's PPrune not SLFrune. Thanks SoS for moving.
No "mistake" in my initial choice of forum: it's PPrune not SLFrune. Thanks SoS for moving.
Whilst I agree with your basic surmise, you probably have a better set of replies from the Military forum than the SLF forum.
It's similar to the changes they made on the Lynx in anti-tank role, they went from Commander (officer or NCO) flying RHS with a corporal gunner firing the TOW missiles form the LHS to the Corporal pilot flying RHS with the Officer/NCO firing the missiles in the LHS.
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In the US there is a general principle of cutting your teeth with weapons in the front seat "under supervision from the rear seater, and then graduating to the piloting and supervision in the back seat for operational flying, see Apache Warrior for an example. Both crew are trained to fly in both seats for currency though.
In the UK the opposite is true where generally you cut your teeth flying in the back assimilating experience and then graduate to front seat weapons and aircraft command. That said the rank structure of the CTR course will also influence this with field officers (potential Sqn Commanders) filling the front seat, SNCO's in the rear seat until the middle where it is a bit luck of the draw; there are the same number of front seats available on a course as rear seats. Once operationally qualified you become seat specific until gaining an instructor rating in one of the disciples and then you can fly operationally from either seat; largely based on greater experience. You can also undertake seat conversion training in a squadron to ensure a particular squadron has balanced crews as people move on. Aircraft command although biased to the front can be undertaken from either seat and officer career path generally means they convert to the front quicker of they had to fill a rear slot on conversion course.
In the UK the opposite is true where generally you cut your teeth flying in the back assimilating experience and then graduate to front seat weapons and aircraft command. That said the rank structure of the CTR course will also influence this with field officers (potential Sqn Commanders) filling the front seat, SNCO's in the rear seat until the middle where it is a bit luck of the draw; there are the same number of front seats available on a course as rear seats. Once operationally qualified you become seat specific until gaining an instructor rating in one of the disciples and then you can fly operationally from either seat; largely based on greater experience. You can also undertake seat conversion training in a squadron to ensure a particular squadron has balanced crews as people move on. Aircraft command although biased to the front can be undertaken from either seat and officer career path generally means they convert to the front quicker of they had to fill a rear slot on conversion course.
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On the AH-1 the front seat flight controls were about 4 times more sensitive than the rear. To those of you that remember your first few hours in a helicopter, think about that.
Separately, I saw this the other day that says that the European Tiger has the pilot in the front and the gunner in the back as standard.
How are the hours logged, in prep for ATPL(H)? Asking for a friend.
