Armed Forces will miss Christmas this year to deal with strike fallout, says Rishi Su
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I'm now in another profession by choice, a profession in which I'm allowed to be in a union.
We all make choices.
To add, you could even say that the freedom to be in a union was fought for by people like my grandfathers, given a certain mustache wearing German banned unions when he took power.
Isn't the problem that people look "elsewhere"? So you think the best outcome will be that nurses get better-paid jobs? Please point out the plentiful supply of happy nurses, train drivers, teachers etc. You might be on to something ...
Happened over Christmas 1977 when the firemen went on strike.
I remember it well - though I was on an overseas posting at the time. I also remember having a great deal of sympathy for the firemen - this was the year many in the Armed Forces got their 'Irish pay rise' i.e., the increase in salaries was wiped out by the increase in messing & accommodation. ISTR I ended up with an extra 50p a week.
I remember it well - though I was on an overseas posting at the time. I also remember having a great deal of sympathy for the firemen - this was the year many in the Armed Forces got their 'Irish pay rise' i.e., the increase in salaries was wiped out by the increase in messing & accommodation. ISTR I ended up with an extra 50p a week.
I like the French model (not often you'll hear me say that!) where the fire services in the two largest cities are provided by the military specifically to prevent them going on strike.
It's the Army in Paris and the Navy in Marseilles. They're full time professional fire-fighters trained and equipped as would any modern urban fire service be - but they're under military discipline and can't go on strike.
It's the Army in Paris and the Navy in Marseilles. They're full time professional fire-fighters trained and equipped as would any modern urban fire service be - but they're under military discipline and can't go on strike.
Funny that the brutal Serviceman is the one the country calls upon when normal service breaks down. Even in the past few years I can think of West Country floods, a dam in danger of breaching, the vast logistics operation to distribute Covid vaccines, Army medics on standby for Nightingale hospitals and overloaded NHS hospitals. In many cases the personnel concerned gave up their Christmas leave and treasured family time, were given cursory thanks by some snivelling politician, then sent on six-month deployments.
Elsewhere on the forum is a thread on the continuing persecution of old soldiers for chaotic events in Northern Ireland half a century ago as murderers walk free. But cheer up, there is some good news this month: a court has quashed the conviction of a prominent member of Sinn Fein/IRA for escaping from lawful custody 50 years ago, while Gerry Adams, who says he was not the IRA's leader, is seeking compensation for a similar claim.
Elsewhere on the forum is a thread on the continuing persecution of old soldiers for chaotic events in Northern Ireland half a century ago as murderers walk free. But cheer up, there is some good news this month: a court has quashed the conviction of a prominent member of Sinn Fein/IRA for escaping from lawful custody 50 years ago, while Gerry Adams, who says he was not the IRA's leader, is seeking compensation for a similar claim.
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I tell you what, how about going and telling all those employees of small companies that may not have had a payrise in several years due to Covid or the energy crisis as firms struggle to survive.
Sorry, but a pay rise for anyone in the civil sector or the military even should not be a God given right, and I am ex military...
I know people that haven't had a pay rise in six or seven years, and are just glad they are still employed.
End of the day if anyone is not happy with their renumeration, look elsewhere, there are plenty that would be happy to fill your / their position.
Rant off.
As for having to work over the Christmas period, been there, seen it and done it, as a military singly, we would often volunteer to cover any duties, so those married guys amongst us could spend the day with their family and kids.
Sorry, but a pay rise for anyone in the civil sector or the military even should not be a God given right, and I am ex military...
I know people that haven't had a pay rise in six or seven years, and are just glad they are still employed.
End of the day if anyone is not happy with their renumeration, look elsewhere, there are plenty that would be happy to fill your / their position.
Rant off.
As for having to work over the Christmas period, been there, seen it and done it, as a military singly, we would often volunteer to cover any duties, so those married guys amongst us could spend the day with their family and kids.
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I was a shift worker until age 43 and always tried to avoid Christmas Day because we attend Midnight Mass at 24th 2300. However, I volunteered for every day or night otherwise, and especially New Year.
The poor married ones of our armed forces do not have the luxury of volunteering to cover for strikers. Thank you, boys and girls, from a grateful old git!
I was a shift worker until age 43 and always tried to avoid Christmas Day because we attend Midnight Mass at 24th 2300. However, I volunteered for every day or night otherwise, and especially New Year.
The poor married ones of our armed forces do not have the luxury of volunteering to cover for strikers. Thank you, boys and girls, from a grateful old git!
Let’s not say there is no money, but let us reflect on the £73 Billion (I think, IFS figures) that were wasted during the Truss weeks trying to buck the market. Add on the Billions gone on Test and Trace, Covid Bounce Back Loans and Furlough fraud. Then lets not mention the Billions gone in PPE fraud and waste.
Any one who watched the performance of Mark Harper, SofS for Transport at the select committee hearings last week, and read the Telegraph last Monday, can be in no doubt that a settlement of the rail strike at least is being held back by government. 7 Day Railway for example is code for giving up overtime payments at weekends – so effectively a pay cut.
As for the other strikes. The Independent Pay Review Bodies have their terms of reference, such as how much money there is and what political ramification there are to any settlement, laid down in a letter from the SofS before the annual process begins. And the Postal strike. Royal Mail is a private company and not in the Public Sector, but last year 2022 it paid a dividend of 9% per share. Nice work if you can get it given the rate on my savings.
I was on a Green Goddess during the Fireman’s Strike in 1977. The fireman were working 4 days when they trained, 4 nights when they slept, and 4 days off when they were taxi drivers / window cleaners etc. They were getting more than my Airman before they (the firemen) went on strike, and the County Fire Chief was being paid more then my AOC.
The standard British response would be Greedy Ba****ds, but my thoughts were ‘why is the Military treated so badly’?
Aid to the civil power was one thing, but living on a camp bed in a Drill Hall over Christmas, strike breaking was quite another, and the whole thing sowed the seed to my eventual PVR.
Any one who watched the performance of Mark Harper, SofS for Transport at the select committee hearings last week, and read the Telegraph last Monday, can be in no doubt that a settlement of the rail strike at least is being held back by government. 7 Day Railway for example is code for giving up overtime payments at weekends – so effectively a pay cut.
As for the other strikes. The Independent Pay Review Bodies have their terms of reference, such as how much money there is and what political ramification there are to any settlement, laid down in a letter from the SofS before the annual process begins. And the Postal strike. Royal Mail is a private company and not in the Public Sector, but last year 2022 it paid a dividend of 9% per share. Nice work if you can get it given the rate on my savings.
I was on a Green Goddess during the Fireman’s Strike in 1977. The fireman were working 4 days when they trained, 4 nights when they slept, and 4 days off when they were taxi drivers / window cleaners etc. They were getting more than my Airman before they (the firemen) went on strike, and the County Fire Chief was being paid more then my AOC.
The standard British response would be Greedy Ba****ds, but my thoughts were ‘why is the Military treated so badly’?
Aid to the civil power was one thing, but living on a camp bed in a Drill Hall over Christmas, strike breaking was quite another, and the whole thing sowed the seed to my eventual PVR.
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I'm a shift worker at 56. I am also in a union as well. Need to be in this world with the nasty c*** that seem to be about in charge of everything. Oh, the company was asked if we could vote on our union being recognised and all our department (union and non union) was asked to vote on it and the company would agree if the vote was more that 50% of department staff. It was a very high percentage. Nutty, were you even in the ALAE?
Nope... But I wasn't talking aviation, the guys I know were highly qualified, the problem they faced were if they moved they would incur substantial travelling costs.
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The fireman's strike of 77 seems to have become the default comparison on here but it's not a reasonable comparison.
As has already been mentioned, there were a lot more military personnel available and the firemen had a very valid case, plus growing public support. My "Green Goddess " training was basically, this is a hydrant, this is a hose reel, there's the fire, point hose accordingly . However, I never deployed. Some of those who did weren't averse to doing so it has to be said for the change and variety....although for some, this changed rapidly after attending a couple of house fires in London...and recovering the former occupants once the fire was extinguished.
What many of those being critical of the proposed use of the military seem to conveniently overlook is, these industrial actions are not "spur of the moment ", strikes are very much the last, not the first resort and the reasons are cumulative over the years...plus, it helps, if, as reported, the Gov't actually begins to talk and negotiate...rather than refuse to do so.
As has already been mentioned, there were a lot more military personnel available and the firemen had a very valid case, plus growing public support. My "Green Goddess " training was basically, this is a hydrant, this is a hose reel, there's the fire, point hose accordingly . However, I never deployed. Some of those who did weren't averse to doing so it has to be said for the change and variety....although for some, this changed rapidly after attending a couple of house fires in London...and recovering the former occupants once the fire was extinguished.
What many of those being critical of the proposed use of the military seem to conveniently overlook is, these industrial actions are not "spur of the moment ", strikes are very much the last, not the first resort and the reasons are cumulative over the years...plus, it helps, if, as reported, the Gov't actually begins to talk and negotiate...rather than refuse to do so.
Thread Starter
The fireman's strike of 77 seems to have become the default comparison on here but it's not a reasonable comparison.
As has already been mentioned, there were a lot more military personnel available and the firemen had a very valid case, plus growing public support. My "Green Goddess " training was basically, this is a hydrant, this is a hose reel, there's the fire, point hose accordingly . However, I never deployed. Some of those who did weren't averse to doing so it has to be said for the change and variety....although for some, this changed rapidly after attending a couple of house fires in London...and recovering the former occupants once the fire was extinguished.
What many of those being critical of the proposed use of the military seem to conveniently overlook is, these industrial actions are not "spur of the moment ", strikes are very much the last, not the first resort and the reasons are cumulative over the years...plus, it helps, if, as reported, the Gov't actually begins to talk and negotiate...rather than refuse to do so.
As has already been mentioned, there were a lot more military personnel available and the firemen had a very valid case, plus growing public support. My "Green Goddess " training was basically, this is a hydrant, this is a hose reel, there's the fire, point hose accordingly . However, I never deployed. Some of those who did weren't averse to doing so it has to be said for the change and variety....although for some, this changed rapidly after attending a couple of house fires in London...and recovering the former occupants once the fire was extinguished.
What many of those being critical of the proposed use of the military seem to conveniently overlook is, these industrial actions are not "spur of the moment ", strikes are very much the last, not the first resort and the reasons are cumulative over the years...plus, it helps, if, as reported, the Gov't actually begins to talk and negotiate...rather than refuse to do so.
And yet, loosely, although the employers are arms-length from Government, clearly the latter has a dog in the fight. As an example, the railways are enormously subsidised by the taxpayer, so any pay rise is likely to involve the Treasury. The Post Office does not involve Government except in so far as the service is essential. The NHS is definitely not Government-run [I am not convinced that it is "run" as most people define "run". And so on.
We hear "They" ought to do something about "it".
"It" is an omnishambles caused by short-termism [governments for many years], incompetence by over-paid administrators and ill-intent by the enemy within.
I should have emigrated to NZ when I had the chance ................. Oh! Wait ...............................?
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Unless the strikers are civil servants, "the Government" are not the employers, and even then [semantics] it is the Crown.
And yet, loosely, although the employers are arms-length from Government, clearly the latter has a dog in the fight. As an example, the railways are enormously subsidised by the taxpayer, so any pay rise is likely to involve the Treasury. The Post Office does not involve Government except in so far as the service is essential. The NHS is definitely not Government-run [I am not convinced that it is "run" as most people define "run". And so on.
We hear "They" ought to do something about "it".
"It" is an omnishambles caused by short-termism [governments for many years], incompetence by over-paid administrators and ill-intent by the enemy within.
I should have emigrated to NZ when I had the chance ................. Oh! Wait ...............................?
And yet, loosely, although the employers are arms-length from Government, clearly the latter has a dog in the fight. As an example, the railways are enormously subsidised by the taxpayer, so any pay rise is likely to involve the Treasury. The Post Office does not involve Government except in so far as the service is essential. The NHS is definitely not Government-run [I am not convinced that it is "run" as most people define "run". And so on.
We hear "They" ought to do something about "it".
"It" is an omnishambles caused by short-termism [governments for many years], incompetence by over-paid administrators and ill-intent by the enemy within.
I should have emigrated to NZ when I had the chance ................. Oh! Wait ...............................?
Something else that's been mentioned " The Great Pay Rise ! "....it was a shame, as has also been mentioned, "The Great Claw Back " didn't receive quite the same publicity at the time.
Nice bit of nostalgia at the end though...
Armed Forces will miss Christmas this year to deal with strike fallout, says Rishi Sunak
there is not much going on with Webber bbq’s in the winter months I’m afraid. Be there will be more pages come thesummer.
"There is not much going on with Weber barbecues in the winter months, I’m afraid. But there will be more pages, come the summer."
More likely in the spring though!
Now back to our normal channel - and hopefully with some actual aviation content!
Beagle, I agree, but do not hold out much hope at present !! (And I don't always agree with you !)
Merry Christmas. Bill.
Merry Christmas. Bill.
It Had To Be Said
It had to said. I know there is a similar thread but this explores something other than Weber barbecues and addresses the general principle of using the military for strike breaking. Mods, merge the threads if you wish
The Armed Forces are not “spare capacity” for striking workers, the chief of the defence staff has said as he cautioned against relying on the military as the “ultimate backstop” during industrial action.
Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, the head of Britain’s Armed Forces, said it would be “slightly perilous” to expect them to be used routinely in the event of strikes by public sector workers.
In an exclusive interview for The Telegraph, Adml Radakin said the use of armed forces to provide cover for striking workers would not impede operations but suggested personnel should be allowed to get on with their day-to-day jobs.
“We’re not spare capacity,” he said. “We’re busy and we’re doing lots of things on behalf of the nation. We’ve got to focus on our primary role.”
We are not spare capacity for strikes, says Armed Forces head
Admiral Sir Tony Radakin warns it is ‘perilous’ to expect military personnel to be used routinely to cover public sector workersThe Armed Forces are not “spare capacity” for striking workers, the chief of the defence staff has said as he cautioned against relying on the military as the “ultimate backstop” during industrial action.
Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, the head of Britain’s Armed Forces, said it would be “slightly perilous” to expect them to be used routinely in the event of strikes by public sector workers.
In an exclusive interview for The Telegraph, Adml Radakin said the use of armed forces to provide cover for striking workers would not impede operations but suggested personnel should be allowed to get on with their day-to-day jobs.
“We’re not spare capacity,” he said. “We’re busy and we’re doing lots of things on behalf of the nation. We’ve got to focus on our primary role.”
Last edited by Ninthace; 17th Dec 2022 at 23:06.
Thread Starter
I thought what he said was at the wet end of possible stances.
Taking the long view, the use of armed forces to cover for better-paid strikers has a double hazard:
resentment and dsicouragement of the forces misemployed and
resentment among the families and friends of the strikers, which will not help recruitment.
Our military should be seen as "us", not "them".
Taking the long view, the use of armed forces to cover for better-paid strikers has a double hazard:
resentment and dsicouragement of the forces misemployed and
resentment among the families and friends of the strikers, which will not help recruitment.
Our military should be seen as "us", not "them".