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Former soldier convicted of manslaughter in NI troubles 1988

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Former soldier convicted of manslaughter in NI troubles 1988

Old 29th Nov 2022, 20:05
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Originally Posted by MENELAUS View Post
Divis Flats. Now long gone. Cracking spot to jettison fuel. Allegedly.
And fridges - allegedly!
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Old 29th Nov 2022, 20:14
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
Good post SAS - that's what they found in S Africa and other places - you can't just go on and on fighting the old battles if you want peace
I think this sums it all up, the problem is, ever since Blair and his, I would say, genuine efficacious approach to resolve the "troubles" the outcome, I would further say for political reasons, has seen British Soldiers of the era treated like Nazi war criminals. The supporters then and now, of the IRA and Sinn Fein etc, will never accept a balanced and fair settlement. They believe every British soldier is a murderer or potentially one. They further believe that every member of of the IRA, every violent protester who flung rocks and bricks and engaged in worse, are unquestionably innocent. There are of course those on the Brit side who react similarly from their own perspective. Blair took the saucepan off the boil, but he didn't solve the matter. Out of fear that the provos wouldn't accept anything but a subjective outcome deeply favourable to their boys, so he couldn't seek a fair settlement. Because of the international situation, British Governments have to contend with the often biased or ignorant pro-IRA leanings of just about any other government on the planet. Therefore, it would be extremely difficult to counter an IRA terrorist resurgence in any decisive manner, which would ensue if the likes of this soldier were granted the amnesty afforded all the terrorist characters on both sides. Its still a puzzle to me , however, why all these charges are being brought, this is perhaps the most recent one, at least 34 years on?

FB
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Old 29th Nov 2022, 21:37
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Originally Posted by Finningley Boy View Post
I think this sums it all up, the problem is, ever since Blair and his, I would say, genuine efficacious approach to resolve the "troubles" the outcome, I would further say for political reasons, has seen British Soldiers of the era treated like Nazi war criminals. The supporters then and now, of the IRA and Sinn Fein etc, will never accept a balanced and fair settlement. They believe every British soldier is a murderer or potentially one. They further believe that every member of of the IRA, every violent protester who flung rocks and bricks and engaged in worse, are unquestionably innocent. There are of course those on the Brit side who react similarly from their own perspective. Blair took the saucepan off the boil, but he didn't solve the matter. Out of fear that the provos wouldn't accept anything but a subjective outcome deeply favourable to their boys, so he couldn't seek a fair settlement. Because of the international situation, British Governments have to contend with the often biased or ignorant pro-IRA leanings of just about any other government on the planet. Therefore, it would be extremely difficult to counter an IRA terrorist resurgence in any decisive manner, which would ensue if the likes of this soldier were granted the amnesty afforded all the terrorist characters on both sides. Its still a puzzle to me , however, why all these charges are being brought, this is perhaps the most recent one, at least 34 years on?

FB

Have a guess as to which of the two terrorist groups carried out the greatest number of attacks between 1985 and 1998. I will give you a clue - it was not the Republican terrorists.

There is a widespread myth propagated, mostly in the UK media, that the IRA were to blame for all the violence. The reality is that both sides were equally to blame. The Republicans carried out more attacks between 1968 and 1985, then the Loyalists upped they game and massively increased the number of attacks they carried out. You couldn't slip a fag paper between the two when it comes to who was worst.

As someone rightly observed earlier, the peacekeeping force were hated by both sides, and were fair game as targets for both, even if the UK media often tried to focus on the Republicans as the bad guys and the Loyalists as the good guys. Add in that the Loyalists were often actively encouraged to march in Republican areas, just to stir things up, and it's little wonder that it took so long for someone to knock all their bloody heads together and start a workable peace process.

FWIW, I very strongly disagree with the one-sided nature of the amnesty - both sides, and the peacekeepers caught in the middle, should have been granted the same immunity for actions back then. It's a bloody tragedy that this never happened.
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Old 29th Nov 2022, 22:20
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Read and learn the history of Northern Ireland for the period 1969- 1971

Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
You could say the ultimate culpability lies with the Irish poplulation that took up arms in the belief it would solve their problems.
No weapons on the street killing each other, no need for the army to be there.
You need to learn some history. Then you will probably understand why that comment is so ignorant.
The British Army were initially sent to Northern Ireland to protect the minority population who were being beaten and killed by the majority (mainly Protestant Unionists). The BA were welcomed in as saviours. Several major errors of judgment by the BA led to the complete turnaround in the attitudes of the Catholic population. In particular, the slaughter in Derry on Bloody Sunday by the Parachute Regiment (January 1972) plus the brutal introduction of Internment carried out by soldiers, inexperienced in the art of confronting often innocent civilians, has a huge amount to answer for.
To understand what happened later in the 80s and 90s, it is essential to learn the history that led up to those dreaded decades.
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Old 29th Nov 2022, 22:49
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Originally Posted by _Agrajag_ View Post

As someone rightly observed earlier, the peacekeeping force were hated by both sides, and were fair game as targets for both, even if the UK media often tried to focus on the Republicans as the bad guys and the Loyalists as the good guys..
We weren't a "peacekeeping force" we were there to support the RUC in the legal execution of their duties. The IRA were painted as the bad guys because they were, during pre-deployment training the focus was on Republican terrorist groups because they were the ones actively targeting and killing us. The Loyalist terrorists concentrated on killing Catholics, occasionally targeting the Security Forces if we stopped their fun. Or perhaps I missed something during my 3 tours and have been wrong all this time.
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Old 30th Nov 2022, 05:54
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Cheekychimp
Agreed. And there was a big difference between the Urban and Rural campaigns. (Certainly in the 70's)
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Old 30th Nov 2022, 13:08
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Originally Posted by cynicalint View Post
And fridges - allegedly!
Certainly aware of a few milk bottles that went that way from 1500’. Made a noise like 1k bombs inbound, apparently!

Mog

Last edited by Mogwi; 30th Nov 2022 at 14:37.
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Old 30th Nov 2022, 13:33
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Originally Posted by cheekychimp View Post
We weren't a "peacekeeping force" we were there to support the RUC in the legal execution of their duties. The IRA were painted as the bad guys because they were, during pre-deployment training the focus was on Republican terrorist groups because they were the ones actively targeting and killing us. The Loyalist terrorists concentrated on killing Catholics, occasionally targeting the Security Forces if we stopped their fun. Or perhaps I missed something during my 3 tours and have been wrong all this time.
Just as military resources are often used to assist Police investigations and operations in all parts of the UK. If my work in NI helped end the career of any terrorists I consider it time well spent.
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Old 30th Nov 2022, 13:38
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
You could say the ultimate culpability lies with the Irish popullation that took up arms in the belief it would solve their problems.
No weapons on the street killing each other, no need for the army to be there.

You need to learn some history. Then you will probably understand why that comment is so ignorant.
The British Army were initially sent to Northern Ireland to protect the minority population who were being beaten and killed by the majority (mainly Protestant Unionists). The BA were welcomed in as saviours. Several major errors of judgment by the BA led to the complete turnaround in the attitudes of the Catholic population. In particular, the slaughter in Derry on Bloody Sunday by the Parachute Regiment (January 1972) plus the brutal introduction of Internment carried out by soldiers, inexperienced in the art of confronting often innocent civilians, has a huge amount to answer for.
To understand what happened later in the 80s and 90s, it is essential to learn the history that led up to those dreaded decades.
Why is is ignorant, you need to read it again.

You could say the ultimate culpability lies with the Irish population that took up arms in the belief it would solve their problems.
Nowhere in that statement do I say who was doing the killing, and as you say "The British Army were initially sent to Northern Ireland to protect the minority population who were being beaten and killed by the majority".

The British Army was initially deployed, at the request of the unionist government of Northern Ireland in response to the August 1969 riots. Its role was to support the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) and to assert the authority of the British.

So as I said, If the Irish population hadn't take up arms and started killing each other REGARLESS OF SIDES the Government on Northern Ireland at the time would not have needed to call on the British Military who were initially welcomed by both sides.

To understand what happened later in the 80s and 90s, it is essential to learn the history that led up to those dreaded decades.
and having been there helps too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Banner
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Old 30th Nov 2022, 16:46
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What complete rubbish . The man was uninvolved unarmed , had passed through the checkpoint and was a threat to no one . He was shot in the back . The checkpoint was not under attack . What references to Irish history or the design of a gpmg or your experience flying Wessex has got to do with any of this ? Nothing . Sickening to read the feeble attempts to justify the psychopathic mowing down of an innocent British citizen .
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Old 30th Nov 2022, 17:08
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A few questions......How is the latest generation, that has not been directly exposed to the violence, accepting the change?

We are all products of our environment that includes what we learn from our parents and grandparent, the schools, and those we encounter, the media, and in these days social media.

Is the trend positive and there is less bitterness among the young as a result of the political decisions that led to the Amnesty?

From a personal perspective my views re Communism is starkly different than my Nephew's view as we each grew up in quite different times.

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Old 30th Nov 2022, 18:23
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Considering there is still resentment between pro and anti treaty groups from a century ago and with the red white and blue curb Stones across the border I would guess not a great deal except the vast scandals of kiddie fiddlers being exposed has changed the mentality in the south amongst many.
But it’s an Ireland fraught with organised crime on all levels.
A couple of years ago I was forced to stop because someone thought I was spying on criminal activities- I explained who I was and what I was doing and went on my way.
I asked my pal who was head of military intelligence although I didn’t know that at the time (but guessed having been intercepted by special branch and SBS in the past); he came back to me that the powers that be allow that activity because it’s better than stopping it and the criminals diversifying.
In his last year he revealed his position but while he had shared his intelligence with the Gardi it wasn’t reciprocated.

Sunday Carlingford had a demonstration with cars from both sides of the border ..protesting about Ukrainian male refugees being housed locally, although the cafe proprietor and staff thought that these protesters were a disgrace.

It’s a land of contradictions and many I meet from both sides wouldn’t dream of crossing the border except for a budget flight.

It’s a great place to retire as long as one keeps one nose out of politics, church and corruption.
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Old 30th Nov 2022, 18:42
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Can we please ressurect Nelson Mandela to produce a new "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" as in South Africa. That seems to be the best way ( in recent times )
to accept that all sides are equally to be responsable for the past "Troubles" and to let "Bygones be Bygones".

Alternatively make all Irish People play Rugby Union Football. Their team has been an "All Ireland" team since 1880 as are their supporters!

PS I am not being flippant, but it seems that a lot of people can be reasonable and not resort to continuous strife!

Putting on Tin Hat awaiting incoming;
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Old 30th Nov 2022, 19:41
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SASless we are all born into this world totally devoid of hate, prejudice or malice against each other regardless of sex, colour or religion, sadly that is indoctrinated into our young people by adults who should know better. Until that changes nothing will change.
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 01:03
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The same Nelson that blew up sub stations etc. One manís terrorist Ö etc etc
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 08:51
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
Good post SAS - that's what they found in S Africa and other places - you can't just go on and on fighting the old battles if you want peace
Zombie - The Craberries.
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 09:33
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Originally Posted by MENELAUS View Post
The same Nelson that blew up sub stations etc. One manís terrorist Ö etc etc

but he changed Menelaus - he changed - and that's what is necessary in N Ireland
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 10:11
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Asturias - but have the terrorists changed in the NI context? In what other country in the world is the the extinction of the country of which they are supposed to govern the avowed aim of the party with the largest number seats (Sinn Fein, 27 seats) in the putative Government?!?**

To rephrase (a paraphrase, admittedly) of von Clausewitz, in this case 'Politics is the continuation of the 'armed struggle' (sic) by other means'!!! Is their war over - definitely not. This is simply a tactical pause to see what concessions they can get, and then if these are not enough, then they change tack - cf 1641, 1688, 1798, 1916, 1921, 1935, 1940, 1956, 1969 - fight, pause, fight, pause...???

**NB...not an overall majority though: 2022 NI Assembly elections - Union Supporting Parties - 35 seats (40.13%); 'Small 'u'' unionist Party - 17 seats (13.53%); Irish Unity Supporting Parties - 35 seats (39.57); Non-Aligned - 1 seat (1.14%); Others - 0 seats (5.23%)
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 10:53
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Northern Ireland is not a two sided sectarian soccer match. It has a population of over 1.5 million people. The vast majority have never held a weapon or inflicted violence on another human. The vast majority simply want to be left alone to mind their own business and make a living for themselves and their family. This man was one of them. A bigot imposes an identity on his victim to allow his uncontrolled emotional thinking to compensate his lack of reality.
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 15:31
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
but he changed Menelaus - he changed - and that's what is necessary in N Ireland

He did. It was certainly expedient for him, and the ANC, to do so. And take a look at modern SA and see the spiral in to decline of services, utilities and corruption ever since. Sometimes it takes a strong persona just to hold a place together. Certainly the case with Tito.
The ďchuckle brosĒ also changed. And for a brief period harmony reigned at Stormont. And they made a decent fist of their respective jobs. Not bad for the man admitting to firing the shots from the flat in the Bogside that sent the Paras off on their rampage. Again, bad judgement. Paras should have been nowhere near a civil rights movement demonstration. They are trained to do a certain job, with prejudice, lightly armed therefore expect a violent response, and get out. Their actions that day ( despite the Bogside being a bloody mess generally) probably did more for IRA and Sinn Fein recruitment than any other single action.
I digress. If a man like [email protected]@ry [email protected]@ms can be free under an amnesty ( and Iím pretty sure he hasnít changed his views one jot) then the same should apply to servicemen acting for the Crown. Accidents and misjudgments do happen. The actions of the PIRA, IRA, Real IRA, UDF, UFF etc etc were rarely accidental.
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