UKMFTS Failing to Deliver...again
MFTS contract - it was competed but now flying training is provided by the incumbent (with the exception of the multi engine crews that went civvy recently, and the ENJJPTS studies).
I am astonished to read that it takes from 6 - 8 years to complete flying training nowadays. I've just had a look in my logbook and I see that it took me almost exactly 2 years and 4 months from taking the Queen's shilling on 08.08.60 to arriving on my first squadron on 06.12.62. What a cock-up!
JW411
Not that I disagree with you that 6-8 years is a ludicrous timeframe, but may I please ask what aircraft type you qualified on in 1962? Also could you please give us an idea of what flying training entailed back then?
BV
BV
If students didn't have holds and just went straight from course to course approx how long would it take to fast jet OCU?
Between 24 week Modular IOT and a FJ OCU is about 24-26 months (that includes groundschool, EFT, FJ Lead In, BFT and AJT - Prefect, Texan and Hawk). The FJ OCU might take another 9 months or so and then a combat ready work up another 6-12 months. So all in around 4 years with no breaks. Add in a year there, a month or 2 there and 2 years here, and then you get the 7 years in the flying training pipeline numbers being quoted.
Flying Training time line in the 1960s
Bob V - It was 3 to 6 months induction training (learning how to march and say 'Sir' which most of us already knew) followed by six months basic and similar advanced flying training, followed by OCU and front line appointment, a little over two years from joining.
I think JW411 qualified on multis (Varsity) followed by Argosy OCU in whatever time scale he says, and was probably a Captain shortly after.
I was flying off a Carrier in the Far East about 22 months after I joined. Not saying I knew much about what was going on, and some of us didn't last long. Eighteen months (late 1962) later we thought we might be asked to use our nuke capability for the Cuba Missile Crisis - QV Order Of The Day -- 2nd August, 1962 -- 60 Years Ago Today
Three 'O' levels got us a job then. I realise you are expected to be a bit cleverer and better qualified now, but there was some urgency (and wonderful job satisfaction) in those days.
What do you think MoD is offering (money) to those 'volunteers' they are currently seeking - for all their waste of time when they could have been getting some useful qualification - instead of sitting on their a***es doing holdovers ?
Have you any idea what they paid the last lot of RAF surplus trainee pilots ? The ones they compulsorily chopped a few years back - Some of them were within spitting distance of their Wings.
There's plenty of keen young lads, but the burning problem is - If they can't train them in a decent time scale and at the other end, they can't retain them, then the RAF is doomed to fail. There won't be any one left apart from a few VSOs waiting to retire and join ASCENT and those who are still actively supporting the abandonment of Airworthiness.
Have you yet read 'A Noble Anger - The Manslaughter of Corporal Jonathan Bayliss' by David Hill ? It's all part of the same rotten 'nobody cares, it's not my problem' problem.
Cheers, LFH
I think JW411 qualified on multis (Varsity) followed by Argosy OCU in whatever time scale he says, and was probably a Captain shortly after.
I was flying off a Carrier in the Far East about 22 months after I joined. Not saying I knew much about what was going on, and some of us didn't last long. Eighteen months (late 1962) later we thought we might be asked to use our nuke capability for the Cuba Missile Crisis - QV Order Of The Day -- 2nd August, 1962 -- 60 Years Ago Today
Three 'O' levels got us a job then. I realise you are expected to be a bit cleverer and better qualified now, but there was some urgency (and wonderful job satisfaction) in those days.
What do you think MoD is offering (money) to those 'volunteers' they are currently seeking - for all their waste of time when they could have been getting some useful qualification - instead of sitting on their a***es doing holdovers ?
Have you any idea what they paid the last lot of RAF surplus trainee pilots ? The ones they compulsorily chopped a few years back - Some of them were within spitting distance of their Wings.
There's plenty of keen young lads, but the burning problem is - If they can't train them in a decent time scale and at the other end, they can't retain them, then the RAF is doomed to fail. There won't be any one left apart from a few VSOs waiting to retire and join ASCENT and those who are still actively supporting the abandonment of Airworthiness.
Have you yet read 'A Noble Anger - The Manslaughter of Corporal Jonathan Bayliss' by David Hill ? It's all part of the same rotten 'nobody cares, it's not my problem' problem.
Cheers, LFH
I know this is a buoy that has been rounded in another thread recently, but:
Moving on 14 years, OCdt Blunder started OCTU at Henlow in June 76 (6-day and 8-day camps moving pinepoles around heatwave'd, drought-struck STANTA and SPTA), September 76 did the IAM preliminary then on to Basic on JP3A at Linton, Jul 77 to 2FTS for the Whirlwind. A 2-week hold on 18 at Gutersloh while the 'new' Wessex 5 course was introduced, then on to the OCU in Feb 78 and the first Sqn in July of that year. Two years one month, and didn't get to Fg Off until after I'd passed C Cat (later called CR) a few months further on.
I sometimes wonder if the recently-ex-Bucc studes we met at N Luffenham in Sep 76 included young BEagle...
but may I please ask what aircraft type you qualified on in 1962? Also could you please give us an idea of what flying training entailed back then?
I sometimes wonder if the recently-ex-Bucc studes we met at N Luffenham in Sep 76 included young BEagle...
Bob Viking:
It went something like this:
08.08.60 Arrived at No.1 ITS South Cerney for commissioning course.
26.11.60 Passed out as an APO. (Given my scroll by Air Commodore The Duke of Hamilton (first man over Everest). His son Angus was on the same course).
Posted to No.6 FTS Ternhill and after 1 week's leave did my first flight in a Piston Provost (wonderful aeroplane).
21.12.60 Exercise 3 Provost XF561.
21.07.61 Last flight in Provost, WV607. 120 hours in Piston Provost. Posted to No.4 FTS to fly 40 hours in DH Vampire T.11 (For "turbine experience").
21.09.61 First Vampire flight XE852. (It was like a flying club).
15.12.61 Last flight in Vampire WZ512.
22.01.62 Start of multi-training. Varsity WJ912.
30.03.62 No.4 FTS moved to Oakington to become No.5 FTS.
22.06.62 Awarded "wings". Last flight in Varsity WJ912 06.06.62.
So, in ball park terms, it was Provost 120 hours/Vampire 40 hours/Varsity 80 hours before getting your wings.
03.07.62 After about 10 days leave, arrived at No.242 OCU at Thorney Island to complete the Transport Command ground school (which went on forever).
15.08.62 Arrived at 242 (Argosy) OCU at Benson to complete the Argosy (which was a new aircraft) course.
30.10.62 After a ground school that also seemed to go on for ever, I finally got airborne in Argosy XN848 this day. We had a lot snow at Benson around Christmas 62/63 and the airfield was closed for 6 weeks.so I didn't get to my first Squadron until:
06.12.62 2 years and 4 months from the start, I arrived on No.267 Squadron.
I hope that this is of interest. I then spent 10 years on the Argosy (I became a trainer in 1966). Then 6 years on the Belfast. Two years on the BN2. Went to Laker on the DC-10 and completed 53 years of productive flying.
I sure as hell could not even contemplate sitting on my arse for 8 years. Have you any idea what a negative effect that would have on your pension planning?
It went something like this:
08.08.60 Arrived at No.1 ITS South Cerney for commissioning course.
26.11.60 Passed out as an APO. (Given my scroll by Air Commodore The Duke of Hamilton (first man over Everest). His son Angus was on the same course).
Posted to No.6 FTS Ternhill and after 1 week's leave did my first flight in a Piston Provost (wonderful aeroplane).
21.12.60 Exercise 3 Provost XF561.
21.07.61 Last flight in Provost, WV607. 120 hours in Piston Provost. Posted to No.4 FTS to fly 40 hours in DH Vampire T.11 (For "turbine experience").
21.09.61 First Vampire flight XE852. (It was like a flying club).
15.12.61 Last flight in Vampire WZ512.
22.01.62 Start of multi-training. Varsity WJ912.
30.03.62 No.4 FTS moved to Oakington to become No.5 FTS.
22.06.62 Awarded "wings". Last flight in Varsity WJ912 06.06.62.
So, in ball park terms, it was Provost 120 hours/Vampire 40 hours/Varsity 80 hours before getting your wings.
03.07.62 After about 10 days leave, arrived at No.242 OCU at Thorney Island to complete the Transport Command ground school (which went on forever).
15.08.62 Arrived at 242 (Argosy) OCU at Benson to complete the Argosy (which was a new aircraft) course.
30.10.62 After a ground school that also seemed to go on for ever, I finally got airborne in Argosy XN848 this day. We had a lot snow at Benson around Christmas 62/63 and the airfield was closed for 6 weeks.so I didn't get to my first Squadron until:
06.12.62 2 years and 4 months from the start, I arrived on No.267 Squadron.
I hope that this is of interest. I then spent 10 years on the Argosy (I became a trainer in 1966). Then 6 years on the Belfast. Two years on the BN2. Went to Laker on the DC-10 and completed 53 years of productive flying.
I sure as hell could not even contemplate sitting on my arse for 8 years. Have you any idea what a negative effect that would have on your pension planning?
More from Deborah Haynes:
"EXCLUSIVE: The defence secretary has ordered an internal inspection of the UK's military flying training after @SkyNews revealed the system to generate @RoyalAirForce pilots is in crisis. The move is a blow for @ChiefofAirStaff , a source said."
"It can also be revealed that the trainee pilots impacted by massive delays in the flying training pipeline have effectively been warned a leak of documents that shed light on their predicament might even worsen their situation rather than improve it."
"A message, which has since been seen by @SkyNews, was distributed widely throughout the RAF, warning against leaking information to the media."
"The author of the official-sounding note said they suspected Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston and the rest of the senior RAF leadership "are in a total tailspin about this"."
"They will now be less likely to view the student cohort's predicament favourably, too."
"Would you, in their position. The military is all about trust, if you betray that knowingly by leaking reams of official info… then you can expect that betrayal will have consequences."
"EXCLUSIVE: The defence secretary has ordered an internal inspection of the UK's military flying training after @SkyNews revealed the system to generate @RoyalAirForce pilots is in crisis. The move is a blow for @ChiefofAirStaff , a source said."
"It can also be revealed that the trainee pilots impacted by massive delays in the flying training pipeline have effectively been warned a leak of documents that shed light on their predicament might even worsen their situation rather than improve it."
"A message, which has since been seen by @SkyNews, was distributed widely throughout the RAF, warning against leaking information to the media."
"The author of the official-sounding note said they suspected Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston and the rest of the senior RAF leadership "are in a total tailspin about this"."
"They will now be less likely to view the student cohort's predicament favourably, too."
"Would you, in their position. The military is all about trust, if you betray that knowingly by leaking reams of official info… then you can expect that betrayal will have consequences."
More from
"Would you, in their position. The military is all about trust, if you betray that knowingly by leaking reams of official info… then you can expect that betrayal will have consequences."
(1) Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "EXCLUSIVE: The defence secretary has ordered an internal inspection of the UK's military flying training after @SkyNews revealed the system to generate @RoyalAirForce pilots is in crisis. The move is a blow for @ChiefofAirStaff, a source said. 1/ https://t.co/aIxRlA9FKa" / Twitter
"Would you, in their position. The military is all about trust, if you betray that knowingly by leaking reams of official info… then you can expect that betrayal will have consequences."
(1) Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "EXCLUSIVE: The defence secretary has ordered an internal inspection of the UK's military flying training after @SkyNews revealed the system to generate @RoyalAirForce pilots is in crisis. The move is a blow for @ChiefofAirStaff, a source said. 1/ https://t.co/aIxRlA9FKa" / Twitter
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While you were having fun there, I was at St Athan on my mechs course and up in the Brecon Beacons beating out the fires that were raging across them at the time... little grass fire, beat it... shower of sparks, lots of little grass fires beat it... even more showers of sparks and more little grass fires... revert to peeing on it.
"Have you any idea what they paid the last lot of RAF surplus trainee pilots ? The ones they compulsorily chopped a few years back - Some of them were within spitting distance of their Wings."
Roughly Ł21k for those with/within spitting distance of wings. If one had wings, that just about paid for a CPL/MEIR course outright.
And then the RAF realised they were short of pilots 🤣.
Roughly Ł21k for those with/within spitting distance of wings. If one had wings, that just about paid for a CPL/MEIR course outright.
And then the RAF realised they were short of pilots 🤣.
Last edited by Darkmouse; 12th Aug 2022 at 14:41.
Guys, guys…you are being soooooooo unfair on CAS!
Don’t forget, he (if I’m allowed to be gender specific here) has had so much to do, recently. E.g. Approving the new starfleet burgerflipping uniforms, placating the PC brigade, revising inclusivity policies, fighting off vexatious claims of white (if I’m aloud to use that word here) washing on recent SI reports and making sure safety recommendations are not implemented.
Is it any wonder ‘he’ missed the clusterfcuk that UKMFTS has allegedly become. Good job he has an eye on Ukraine and Taiwan.
Don’t forget, he (if I’m allowed to be gender specific here) has had so much to do, recently. E.g. Approving the new starfleet burgerflipping uniforms, placating the PC brigade, revising inclusivity policies, fighting off vexatious claims of white (if I’m aloud to use that word here) washing on recent SI reports and making sure safety recommendations are not implemented.
Is it any wonder ‘he’ missed the clusterfcuk that UKMFTS has allegedly become. Good job he has an eye on Ukraine and Taiwan.
Thread Starter
More from Deborah Haynes:
"EXCLUSIVE: The defence secretary has ordered an internal inspection of the UK's military flying training after @SkyNews revealed the system to generate @RoyalAirForce pilots is in crisis. The move is a blow for @ChiefofAirStaff , a source said."
"It can also be revealed that the trainee pilots impacted by massive delays in the flying training pipeline have effectively been warned a leak of documents that shed light on their predicament might even worsen their situation rather than improve it."
"A message, which has since been seen by @SkyNews, was distributed widely throughout the RAF, warning against leaking information to the media."
"The author of the official-sounding note said they suspected Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston and the rest of the senior RAF leadership "are in a total tailspin about this"."
"They will now be less likely to view the student cohort's predicament favourably, too."
"Would you, in their position. The military is all about trust, if you betray that knowingly by leaking reams of official info… then you can expect that betrayal will have consequences."
(1) Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "EXCLUSIVE: The defence secretary has ordered an internal inspection of the UK's military flying training after @SkyNews revealed the system to generate @RoyalAirForce pilots is in crisis. The move is a blow for @ChiefofAirStaff, a source said. 1/ https://t.co/aIxRlA9FKa" / Twitter
"EXCLUSIVE: The defence secretary has ordered an internal inspection of the UK's military flying training after @SkyNews revealed the system to generate @RoyalAirForce pilots is in crisis. The move is a blow for @ChiefofAirStaff , a source said."
"It can also be revealed that the trainee pilots impacted by massive delays in the flying training pipeline have effectively been warned a leak of documents that shed light on their predicament might even worsen their situation rather than improve it."
"A message, which has since been seen by @SkyNews, was distributed widely throughout the RAF, warning against leaking information to the media."
"The author of the official-sounding note said they suspected Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston and the rest of the senior RAF leadership "are in a total tailspin about this"."
"They will now be less likely to view the student cohort's predicament favourably, too."
"Would you, in their position. The military is all about trust, if you betray that knowingly by leaking reams of official info… then you can expect that betrayal will have consequences."
(1) Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "EXCLUSIVE: The defence secretary has ordered an internal inspection of the UK's military flying training after @SkyNews revealed the system to generate @RoyalAirForce pilots is in crisis. The move is a blow for @ChiefofAirStaff, a source said. 1/ https://t.co/aIxRlA9FKa" / Twitter
Every VSO who was involved with MFTS should lose their pension as penance for presiding over this utterly predictable (because we predicted it!) farce. It will take a generation to undo the damage that MFTS has inflicted on the Services - good job there is not much conflict looming on the horizon...
Baldeep,
VSOs falling on their swords after execrable decisions? After the example set by an MRAF et al with the Mull debacle? Another job that will take a generation to fix; another bunch of 'Lord'ships and senior positions in industry will be seen before any of that happens.
VSOs falling on their swords after execrable decisions? After the example set by an MRAF et al with the Mull debacle? Another job that will take a generation to fix; another bunch of 'Lord'ships and senior positions in industry will be seen before any of that happens.
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There ws a gentleman of my acquaintance ...
63 to Cranwell
66 July ... graduated
68 March ... Hunter pilot on 20 Sqn at Tengah.
So under 2 years from graduating from Cranwell. He done good!
https://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Squire_PT.htm
63 to Cranwell
66 July ... graduated
68 March ... Hunter pilot on 20 Sqn at Tengah.
So under 2 years from graduating from Cranwell. He done good!
https://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Squire_PT.htm
To put things in perspective - it wasn't that long ago (but before MFTS, obvs), that 65 hours of EFT took 3-4 months, weather dependent, BFJTS took 10 and Valley took just over a year. There is absolutely no reason why flying training shouldn't be relatively quick.
But then you get some idiots with MBE's, and an eye on their own future involved, and the oldest and most respected flying training training system in the world gets obliterated. The basics don't change, despite the the technology changing - some things are easier, many things are more complex, but the sky is still an fascinating and deadly place to conduct your business - that flying training is now shorter than it was at the height of the battle of Britain is a travesty.
Not that long ago (circa 3 years), a popular RAF flying club with about 4 instructors produced 45 PPL's; admittedly a mix of ab initios and QSP's, but still - In the same year, EFT produced 24 graduates.
HOW?!
I have railed against the system to the best of my ability, to no avail. The question is, how TF do we collectively change the RAF for the better? To put the things that really matter back in the crosshairs? I can't see a way. Maybe because I like flying and couldn't give a f*ck about having an MML I can't see a way through, but there must be one. Writing to VSO's and politicians (I do write a decent letter) changes nothing.
All ideas welcome..
But then you get some idiots with MBE's, and an eye on their own future involved, and the oldest and most respected flying training training system in the world gets obliterated. The basics don't change, despite the the technology changing - some things are easier, many things are more complex, but the sky is still an fascinating and deadly place to conduct your business - that flying training is now shorter than it was at the height of the battle of Britain is a travesty.
Not that long ago (circa 3 years), a popular RAF flying club with about 4 instructors produced 45 PPL's; admittedly a mix of ab initios and QSP's, but still - In the same year, EFT produced 24 graduates.
HOW?!
I have railed against the system to the best of my ability, to no avail. The question is, how TF do we collectively change the RAF for the better? To put the things that really matter back in the crosshairs? I can't see a way. Maybe because I like flying and couldn't give a f*ck about having an MML I can't see a way through, but there must be one. Writing to VSO's and politicians (I do write a decent letter) changes nothing.
All ideas welcome..