Poland Order AW149
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Poland Order AW149
https://www.defensenews.com/industry...worth-over-1b/
Poland reveals plan to buy AW149 helos in deal potentially worth over $1B
ROME — Poland plans to buy AW149 helicopters, the defense ministry said Monday, with one Italian bank estimating the order could be worth €1.1 billion (U.S. $1.15 billion) to manufacturer Leonardo.
“In the near future we will sign contracts for the supply of mine destroyers ... AW149 multi-role support helicopters, two observation satellites and tank destroyers,” according to a tweet from the ministry, which cited Defence Minister Mariusz Blaszczak.
Polish news portal Defence24 reported the order will include 32 helicopters, with assembly handled in Poland by PZL-Świdnik, which is controlled by Leonardo. It also reported Poland will acquire the helicopters in three different formats: combat support; command; and reconnaissance and electronic warfare.
Italian brokerage Banca Akros on Tuesday estimated the contract value, which it said is equivalent to about 7.7% of Leonardo’s expected 2022 orders.
A medium-lift, multirole helicopter launched in 2006, AW149 customers include Thailand and Egypt. Leonardo is currently marketing the type to the United Kingdom…..
Poland reveals plan to buy AW149 helos in deal potentially worth over $1B
ROME — Poland plans to buy AW149 helicopters, the defense ministry said Monday, with one Italian bank estimating the order could be worth €1.1 billion (U.S. $1.15 billion) to manufacturer Leonardo.
“In the near future we will sign contracts for the supply of mine destroyers ... AW149 multi-role support helicopters, two observation satellites and tank destroyers,” according to a tweet from the ministry, which cited Defence Minister Mariusz Blaszczak.
Polish news portal Defence24 reported the order will include 32 helicopters, with assembly handled in Poland by PZL-Świdnik, which is controlled by Leonardo. It also reported Poland will acquire the helicopters in three different formats: combat support; command; and reconnaissance and electronic warfare.
Italian brokerage Banca Akros on Tuesday estimated the contract value, which it said is equivalent to about 7.7% of Leonardo’s expected 2022 orders.
A medium-lift, multirole helicopter launched in 2006, AW149 customers include Thailand and Egypt. Leonardo is currently marketing the type to the United Kingdom…..
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A little extra context – in 2015 Polish Armed Forces selected H225 over AW149 and Blackhawk in a tender for around 50 frames (with few different missions). That order was cancelled in 2016 after elections. Polish government settled with Airbus few months ago (paying close to £20M for walking away).
While the current order is related to another program and mission profiles are different, it will inevitably be heavily contested – especially given that the selection process was not very transparent. There has been an ongoing conversation with potential suppliers (apparently, 12 of them…). LM was there, too – and with the assembly line in Mielec & 8 orders for S-70i to date (plus 3 for Police), it is likely that this announcement is not the end of challenges for Leonardo. There is a strong LM/Mielec lobby and a sort of status quo was maintained to date – to balance the S-70i orders, Leonardo is now supplying 4 AW101s.
Apparently, for this specific program, Leonardo was promoting AW139M with AW149 also on offer – but the focus was on the former. Given the requirement to carry 5 fully equipped troops or 1000kg, AW139 would probably do the job well enough. It is the Polish side that wanted AW149. The plan is to operate them in a safe distance from an adversary, reducing the need for ballistic protection etc. (and decreasing the appeal of S70).
It will be interesting to see how Leonardo navigates any potential promises/commitments for local build (beyond just assembly) if UK’s NMH ends up being AW149. Offset & job creation has been a major point in the 2015 tender debacle, although LM manages to get a drip of S70i orders without any offset (or tenders).
Also, hello everyone since it’s my first post
, Jakub
While the current order is related to another program and mission profiles are different, it will inevitably be heavily contested – especially given that the selection process was not very transparent. There has been an ongoing conversation with potential suppliers (apparently, 12 of them…). LM was there, too – and with the assembly line in Mielec & 8 orders for S-70i to date (plus 3 for Police), it is likely that this announcement is not the end of challenges for Leonardo. There is a strong LM/Mielec lobby and a sort of status quo was maintained to date – to balance the S-70i orders, Leonardo is now supplying 4 AW101s.
Apparently, for this specific program, Leonardo was promoting AW139M with AW149 also on offer – but the focus was on the former. Given the requirement to carry 5 fully equipped troops or 1000kg, AW139 would probably do the job well enough. It is the Polish side that wanted AW149. The plan is to operate them in a safe distance from an adversary, reducing the need for ballistic protection etc. (and decreasing the appeal of S70).
It will be interesting to see how Leonardo navigates any potential promises/commitments for local build (beyond just assembly) if UK’s NMH ends up being AW149. Offset & job creation has been a major point in the 2015 tender debacle, although LM manages to get a drip of S70i orders without any offset (or tenders).
Also, hello everyone since it’s my first post
, Jakub
Originally Posted by ORAC
https://www.defensenews.com/industry...worth-over-1b/
Poland reveals plan to buy AW149 helos in deal potentially worth over $1B
ROME — Poland plans to buy AW149 helicopters, the defense ministry said Monday, with one Italian bank estimating the order could be worth €1.1 billion (U.S. $1.15 billion) to manufacturer Leonardo.
“In the near future we will sign contracts for the supply of mine destroyers ... AW149 multi-role support helicopters, two observation satellites and tank destroyers,” according to a tweet from the ministry, which cited Defence Minister Mariusz Blaszczak.
Polish news portal Defence24 reported the order will include 32 helicopters, with assembly handled in Poland by PZL-Świdnik, which is controlled by Leonardo.
It also reported Poland will acquire the helicopters in three different formats: combat support; command; and reconnaissance and electronic warfare.
Poland reveals plan to buy AW149 helos in deal potentially worth over $1B
ROME — Poland plans to buy AW149 helicopters, the defense ministry said Monday, with one Italian bank estimating the order could be worth €1.1 billion (U.S. $1.15 billion) to manufacturer Leonardo.
“In the near future we will sign contracts for the supply of mine destroyers ... AW149 multi-role support helicopters, two observation satellites and tank destroyers,” according to a tweet from the ministry, which cited Defence Minister Mariusz Blaszczak.
Polish news portal Defence24 reported the order will include 32 helicopters, with assembly handled in Poland by PZL-Świdnik, which is controlled by Leonardo.
It also reported Poland will acquire the helicopters in three different formats: combat support; command; and reconnaissance and electronic warfare.
Why get a similar class helicopter with a lower max gross weight?
From a spec sheet on the AW 149. MAX GROSS WEIGHT 8,300 kg / 18,298 lb (Not quite a UH-60A)
From the spec sheet on the S-70i: 9,979kg/22,000 Max Gross (more or less UH-60 L or M)
I guess that the devil is in the details, or that a sweet, sweet price was too good to pass up.
EDIT: Sorry, we cross posted, thank you for the insights Jakub!
Given the requirement to carry 5 fully equipped troops or 1000kg, AW139 would probably do the job well enough. It is the Polish side that wanted AW149.
‘The plan is to operate them in a safe distance from an adversary, reducing the need for ballistic protection etc. (and decreasing the appeal of S70).’ Well that sounds like just the sort of aircraft the UK needs to replace Puma……
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"The plan is to operate them in a safe distance from an adversary, reducing the need for ballistic protection etc. (and decreasing the appeal of S70)."
Given the fact, that some of these helicopters will be used in combat support role, this is some kind of joke.
Given the fact, that some of these helicopters will be used in combat support role, this is some kind of joke.
Interesting given the Italians went the other way on 139 v 149. As Leonardo are trying to flog the 149 to the UK I would have thought they would be very keen to have another NATO customer.
Are they just not confident in the 'scalable' integrated Defensive Aids Suite 'including Electronic Countermeasure Dispensing System (ECDS), Radar Warning, Receiver (RWR), [email protected] Warning Receiver, (LWR), Missile Warning System (MWS) and IR Jammer'; or only prepared to pay for the cheap end of the scale.
MTOW is all very well but surely if the crewed and fuelled but otherwise empty airframe is considerably lighter it can haul more at a lower MTOW. External load capacity is 149 2800kg v 70i 4082kg.
According to the brochures an AW.149 can carry 16 fully armed or 19 lightly armed troops v an S70i's 11 Troops + 2 Gunner/Crew Chief. Cabin volume is identical.
I wonder if it was the cost of the C2/4 and ISR 'extras' that swung it.
Are they just not confident in the 'scalable' integrated Defensive Aids Suite 'including Electronic Countermeasure Dispensing System (ECDS), Radar Warning, Receiver (RWR), [email protected] Warning Receiver, (LWR), Missile Warning System (MWS) and IR Jammer'; or only prepared to pay for the cheap end of the scale.
MTOW is all very well but surely if the crewed and fuelled but otherwise empty airframe is considerably lighter it can haul more at a lower MTOW. External load capacity is 149 2800kg v 70i 4082kg.
According to the brochures an AW.149 can carry 16 fully armed or 19 lightly armed troops v an S70i's 11 Troops + 2 Gunner/Crew Chief. Cabin volume is identical.
I wonder if it was the cost of the C2/4 and ISR 'extras' that swung it.
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According to the brochures an AW.149 can carry 16 fully armed or 19 lightly armed troops v an S70i's 11 Troops + 2 Gunner/Crew Chief. Cabin volume is identical.
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The press release confirms that the local subsidiary (PZL Swidnik) will be the prime contractor and will host a local production line. First deliveries are planned as early as 2023. As a part of the contract PZL Swidnik will be also responsible for integration of anti-tank guided missiles.
The missiles have been apparently already ordered from another (so far unnamed) vendor. Given that PZL Swidnik has a long history of ultimately failed attempts to sell Spike-armed PZL W-3s, some variant of that missile is not unlikely... Spike is also widely used by Polish Land Forces.
The total contract cost seems mostly in line with the previous (cancelled) contract - mentioned earlier in this thread (50 H225Ms for roughly $3.5B).
Jakub
The missiles have been apparently already ordered from another (so far unnamed) vendor. Given that PZL Swidnik has a long history of ultimately failed attempts to sell Spike-armed PZL W-3s, some variant of that missile is not unlikely... Spike is also widely used by Polish Land Forces.
The total contract cost seems mostly in line with the previous (cancelled) contract - mentioned earlier in this thread (50 H225Ms for roughly $3.5B).
Jakub
I'm slightly confused by the ballistic protection statement as my understanding is that the AW149 comes with cockpit and cabin protection. I suppose it could be optional.
The H225M contract was (allegedly) cancelled by the then new Polish government over an inability to agree offset deals, that contract itself was allegedly a quid pro quo to compensate the French for Russian Mistral order cancelled due to the invasion of Crimea. Unlike LM and Leonardo who already have them, Airbus was going to have to establish a production facility (at the state owned company PGZ's WZL1 plant in Łódź). If I were in the Leonardo C-suite I wouldn't be counting on anything until deliveries start.
The H225M contract was (allegedly) cancelled by the then new Polish government over an inability to agree offset deals, that contract itself was allegedly a quid pro quo to compensate the French for Russian Mistral order cancelled due to the invasion of Crimea. Unlike LM and Leonardo who already have them, Airbus was going to have to establish a production facility (at the state owned company PGZ's WZL1 plant in Łódź). If I were in the Leonardo C-suite I wouldn't be counting on anything until deliveries start.
Ironic.
Poland's efforts to update/improve their defence capabilities accelerated by the Russian invasion of a neighbouring country.
They do a deal with a majority-owned Italian government company which retains extensive commercial and manufacturing links with Russia
- and end up buying what can only be described as a 'pup' which has been rejected by fellow European allies.
The only 2 buyers so far being countries with 'questionable' human rights record with the intent to use them for what can be best described as 'light duties'.
Yes! Prime Minister........
Poland's efforts to update/improve their defence capabilities accelerated by the Russian invasion of a neighbouring country.
They do a deal with a majority-owned Italian government company which retains extensive commercial and manufacturing links with Russia
- and end up buying what can only be described as a 'pup' which has been rejected by fellow European allies.
The only 2 buyers so far being countries with 'questionable' human rights record with the intent to use them for what can be best described as 'light duties'.
Yes! Prime Minister........
Originally Posted by EESDL
Ironic.
Poland's efforts to update/improve their defence capabilities accelerated by the Russian invasion of a neighbouring country.
They do a deal with a majority-owned Italian government company which retains extensive commercial and manufacturing links with Russia
- and end up buying what can only be described as a 'pup' which has been rejected by fellow European allies.
The only 2 buyers so far being countries with 'questionable' human rights record with the intent to use them for what can be best described as 'light duties'.
Yes! Prime Minister........
Poland's efforts to update/improve their defence capabilities accelerated by the Russian invasion of a neighbouring country.
They do a deal with a majority-owned Italian government company which retains extensive commercial and manufacturing links with Russia
- and end up buying what can only be described as a 'pup' which has been rejected by fellow European allies.
The only 2 buyers so far being countries with 'questionable' human rights record with the intent to use them for what can be best described as 'light duties'.
Yes! Prime Minister........
Egypt is one whose the other customer with questionable morales ?.
cheers
