DM: RAF probe drunken Red Arrow airman
I've no idea whether brevet rank is still conferred in the British Army but, in 1914, it appears to have been an Army, rather than regimental, concept. 1st Gordon Highlanders deployed to France in August 1914 and, in the retreat from Mons, took part in the holding battle at Le Cateau on 26 August. They did not receive the withdrawal order that afternoon, and neither did companies of other regiments on each side of them. As the situation developed, a Gordons Lt Col (Brevet Colonel) - not the Gordons' CO - claimed that as those left constituted an Army grouping, it fell to him to take command. I imagine that this caused some disagreement with the CO but that's what finally happened and the group began to withdraw in very difficult circumstances after midnight - my maternal grandfather died in the ensuing confusion as they encountered German forces that were now surrounding them. Some years after the war, I believe this incident led to a legal case in the Scottish courts.
Whatever merits this system may have had in a peacetime army, my impression is that it did not transfer well into the heat of battle.
Whatever merits this system may have had in a peacetime army, my impression is that it did not transfer well into the heat of battle.
Yes I agree.
An interesting case arose when the Connaught Rangers mutiny occurred in [from memory] 1921. The mixed force scraped together to restore order was commanded by a regimental captain, brevet Lt Col.
This gallant and distinguished soldier began the Great War as a CSM, was commissioned in the field a month later, much decorated [double DSO}, twice temporarily commanded an infantry brigade, received two brevets but, in the post-war contraction, never made regimental rank beyond captain.
An interesting case arose when the Connaught Rangers mutiny occurred in [from memory] 1921. The mixed force scraped together to restore order was commanded by a regimental captain, brevet Lt Col.
This gallant and distinguished soldier began the Great War as a CSM, was commissioned in the field a month later, much decorated [double DSO}, twice temporarily commanded an infantry brigade, received two brevets but, in the post-war contraction, never made regimental rank beyond captain.
Last edited by langleybaston; 31st May 2022 at 21:12. Reason: addendum
So, quite literally, the term “Brevet” in “Brevet Rank” referred to the warrant or letters patent that conferred the authority of a higher rank to someone holding a lower substantive rank. So yet again, the word “Brevet” means a kind of paper certificate, or letter, or diploma, or warrant in this case as it does in all others.
Entre - American main Course, or French - starter
Brevet British vernacular for a flying badge, or French - paper certificate.
Gay 1914 happy and Jolly - 2014 'Good As You'
Kite, childs flying toy or Big Boys flying toy,
Plane -carpenter's tool or Big boys flying toy
Same words, different times and languages meaning different things to different people.
Language evolves, semantics may say brevet is a certificate, but most will still understand the the use of brevet refers to a flying badge which in turn is a representative of the certificate awarded to permit the wearing of the flying badge. One can't have the badge without the certificate, so brevet has become synonymous with the badge.
Brevet British vernacular for a flying badge, or French - paper certificate.
Gay 1914 happy and Jolly - 2014 'Good As You'
Kite, childs flying toy or Big Boys flying toy,
Plane -carpenter's tool or Big boys flying toy
Same words, different times and languages meaning different things to different people.
Language evolves, semantics may say brevet is a certificate, but most will still understand the the use of brevet refers to a flying badge which in turn is a representative of the certificate awarded to permit the wearing of the flying badge. One can't have the badge without the certificate, so brevet has become synonymous with the badge.
I've no idea whether brevet rank is still conferred in the British Army but, in 1914, it appears to have been an Army, rather than regimental, concept. 1st Gordon Highlanders deployed to France in August 1914 and, in the retreat from Mons, took part in the holding battle at Le Cateau on 26 August. They did not receive the withdrawal order that afternoon, and neither did companies of other regiments on each side of them. As the situation developed, a Gordons Lt Col (Brevet Colonel) - not the Gordons' CO - claimed that as those left constituted an Army grouping, it fell to him to take command. I imagine that this caused some disagreement with the CO but that's what finally happened and the group began to withdraw in very difficult circumstances after midnight - my maternal grandfather died in the ensuing confusion as they encountered German forces that were now surrounding them. Some years after the war, I believe this incident led to a legal case in the Scottish courts.
Whatever merits this system may have had in a peacetime army, my impression is that it did not transfer well into the heat of battle.
Whatever merits this system may have had in a peacetime army, my impression is that it did not transfer well into the heat of battle.
Gordon's health declined in captivity and he was exchanged for a Prussian prince in 1916. After the war, one of the men was quoted as saying that Gordon had ordered the battalion to surrender (this in an article in The People's Journal). Gordon sued for libel and won; it was alleged that the CO and members of his family held a significant enough shareholding in the newspaper to put the editor up to blaming Gordon for the surrender, but as well as winning the court case he was exonerated by a Court of Inquiry into the events of 1914 (which published its conclusions shortly after the court case ended, agreeing that Gordon hadn't surrendered and had, indeed, wished to attempt a break out.
In terms of Brevet, LJ is absolutely correct about the etymological origins - but the term extended to mean the badge thanks to the original practice in the RFC of presenting wings and flying certificate to a newly-qualified pilot. The new pilot had thus been awarded his 'flying brevet'... and over time, this came to be interpreted as the badge which was part of the original 'brevet' package, as it were.
One hardly dares point out that the RAF Club website now states that affiliate membership is open to "A flying brevet wearing officer of the Navy or Army'...
Last edited by Archimedes; 1st Jun 2022 at 09:11.
Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
I bet there are are some WSO's who have declined the new badge and continue to wear their 'N' and 'AE' brevets. Same thing, really.
Just an observation (excuse the pun!), but it would appear that more AEOp/AEOs have switched to the new WSO brevet than Navs - why is this? The only N-breveted navs that I know that sport the WSO brevet are the ones that thought it might be good for their career
Also, I think it is dreadful that RAF stores no longer keep the older brevets in stock. I've heard of Navs going on e-bay to buy their brevets. In 1952 did they cease stocking King's Crown Pilot's brevets - I doubt it!
If you read the book in post #2 (there's a copy in the RAF Club library) there is a big section on the new WSO brevet. Originally, it was planned to be a 2-winged brevet for Navs that flew in the boot of Tornado, Phantom and Buccaneer. But when some of the other fleets got wind of it (Nimrod, E3 and Truckies) they wanted 'in' and so it went back to the current debacle. I know a Nav who went from Tornado to E3 at the time of the change of brevet - he said that it was madness that he had flown 12 years as a Nav on a Tornado with weapons and now he was a Weapons Systems Officer (Nav) he flew the E3 with no weapons!!!
Finally, ACM Sir Simon Bryant was a Nav and he never changed to the new WSO brevet. He was the first, and probably only, 4 star Nav.
LJ
PS. The older brevets are here: RAF Flying Badges_U
And the current ones are here: RAF Flying Badges_U
What is really odd is that we have, since the instigation of WSO brevets, invented new ones for Image Analysts to go with Airborne Techs and Fighter Controllers (or Air Battlespace Managers as they are now known) - what a cluster!
I bet there are are some WSO's who have declined the new badge and continue to wear their 'N' and 'AE' brevets. Same thing, really.
Just an observation (excuse the pun!), but it would appear that more AEOp/AEOs have switched to the new WSO brevet than Navs - why is this? The only N-breveted navs that I know that sport the WSO brevet are the ones that thought it might be good for their career
Also, I think it is dreadful that RAF stores no longer keep the older brevets in stock. I've heard of Navs going on e-bay to buy their brevets. In 1952 did they cease stocking King's Crown Pilot's brevets - I doubt it!
If you read the book in post #2 (there's a copy in the RAF Club library) there is a big section on the new WSO brevet. Originally, it was planned to be a 2-winged brevet for Navs that flew in the boot of Tornado, Phantom and Buccaneer. But when some of the other fleets got wind of it (Nimrod, E3 and Truckies) they wanted 'in' and so it went back to the current debacle. I know a Nav who went from Tornado to E3 at the time of the change of brevet - he said that it was madness that he had flown 12 years as a Nav on a Tornado with weapons and now he was a Weapons Systems Officer (Nav) he flew the E3 with no weapons!!!
Finally, ACM Sir Simon Bryant was a Nav and he never changed to the new WSO brevet. He was the first, and probably only, 4 star Nav.
LJ
PS. The older brevets are here: RAF Flying Badges_U
And the current ones are here: RAF Flying Badges_U
What is really odd is that we have, since the instigation of WSO brevets, invented new ones for Image Analysts to go with Airborne Techs and Fighter Controllers (or Air Battlespace Managers as they are now known) - what a cluster!
Qualification Badges
0712. Flying & Parachute Badges. This section deals with those flying badges (QR J727 & 728) and Parachute badges (QR 434 – 436)
currently in issue
BADGE DESCRIPTION
Pilot. Wings of drab silk embroidery with monogram 'RAF' in centre, surrounded by laurel leaf of brown silk and
surmounted by a crown – on dark blue melton cloth.
Navigator. The letter 'N' of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm)
long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Air Electronics Officer ]
or Operator (AE) ] As for Navigator, but with alternative letters, in brackets. (See Note)
Air Engineer (E) ]
Air Loadmaster (LM) ]
Note. With effect 1 Apr 03 the range of 5 aircrew brevets for rear crew personnel were replaced by the single rear crew brevet (see below).
Those aircrew who were already qualified to wear old style individual brevets can opt to wear the new brevet or retain the old style but there will
be no further provisioning of the current brevet.
Rear Aircrew Brevet. The monogram ‘RAF’ in drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk, surmounted by a crown with an
outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth. Introduced 1 Apr 03 to replace
Navigator, Air Electronics Officer/Operator, Air Engineer and Air Loadmaster. (See Note Above).
Fighter Controller (FC). The letters ‘FC’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Airborne Technician (AT). The letters ‘AT’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
0712. Flying & Parachute Badges. This section deals with those flying badges (QR J727 & 728) and Parachute badges (QR 434 – 436)
currently in issue
BADGE DESCRIPTION
Pilot. Wings of drab silk embroidery with monogram 'RAF' in centre, surrounded by laurel leaf of brown silk and
surmounted by a crown – on dark blue melton cloth.
Navigator. The letter 'N' of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm)
long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Air Electronics Officer ]
or Operator (AE) ] As for Navigator, but with alternative letters, in brackets. (See Note)
Air Engineer (E) ]
Air Loadmaster (LM) ]
Note. With effect 1 Apr 03 the range of 5 aircrew brevets for rear crew personnel were replaced by the single rear crew brevet (see below).
Those aircrew who were already qualified to wear old style individual brevets can opt to wear the new brevet or retain the old style but there will
be no further provisioning of the current brevet.
Rear Aircrew Brevet. The monogram ‘RAF’ in drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk, surmounted by a crown with an
outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth. Introduced 1 Apr 03 to replace
Navigator, Air Electronics Officer/Operator, Air Engineer and Air Loadmaster. (See Note Above).
Fighter Controller (FC). The letters ‘FC’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Airborne Technician (AT). The letters ‘AT’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Words, phrases and terms rely on their utility by being understood and interpreted by those who use them and those who interpret them.
Those who object to the use of brevet when describing a uniform badge denoting qualification understand what it is being used to describe (a qualification badge). So their objection is not through a lack of understanding of meaning in context. If the meaning is known where does the problem lie?
Those who object to the use of brevet when describing a uniform badge denoting qualification understand what it is being used to describe (a qualification badge). So their objection is not through a lack of understanding of meaning in context. If the meaning is known where does the problem lie?
A pilot sent home from Springhawk in mid-May and therefore a bit late to train a replacement. Not sure why 7 rather than 8 though I guess the odd number works better for the formations. Unless another pilot not able to fly.
