Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Boris and bilateral security assurances: Sweden and Finland

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Boris and bilateral security assurances: Sweden and Finland

Old 16th May 2022, 00:44
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NEW YORK
Posts: 1,273
Originally Posted by Beamr View Post
To add some (naval)aviation content, the USS Kearsarge is steaming close to the Swedish coast on the Baltic Sea.
There are some joint amphibious exercises going on there as the Swedish naval HQ is in Karlskrona. USS Kearsarge is accompanied by USS Gravely and USS Gunston Hall.

Thats a big ship for the Baltic Sea with quite some equipment. Makes a statement.
Given the recent events in the Black Sea, is such gunboat diplomacy still effective?
etudiant is offline  
Old 16th May 2022, 04:34
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Outer ring of HEL
Posts: 942
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
Given the recent events in the Black Sea, is such gunboat diplomacy still effective?
theres a slight difference in the level of diplomacy as the Russian fleet is doing their deed as uninvited but the US fleet has been invited.
The Russian fleet is killing innocent women, children and men while actively invading a sovereign country. Meanwhile the US fleet is practicing with friends how to protect the innocent civilians from an unjust attack.

The main difference being as always: were you invited or not.
Beamr is offline  
Old 16th May 2022, 06:16
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: X marks the spot
Posts: 48
Socialdems in Sweden changed their stance yesterday now saying it's better to be in NATO, so there is a large majority in parliament to vote it through and then file the application...
Clop_Clop is offline  
Old 16th May 2022, 13:25
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Outer ring of HEL
Posts: 942
Swedish prime minister Magdalena Andrrsson just officially annouced that Sweden will apply to join NATO and will do it together with Finland. That's it then.
Beamr is offline  
Old 16th May 2022, 13:59
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 689
Originally Posted by Clop_Clop View Post
Socialdems in Sweden changed their stance yesterday now saying it's better to be in NATO, so there is a large majority in parliament to vote it through and then file the application...
Don't forget the decision to admit a country into NATO has to be unanimous, Turkey will want something in return for agreeing.
Ninthace is offline  
Old 16th May 2022, 14:01
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 1,500
Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
Don't forget the decision to admit a country into NATO has to be unanimous, Turkey will want something in return for agreeing.
And Hungary may block them too - their President seems another Putin fanboy
Davef68 is offline  
Old 16th May 2022, 14:10
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 13,929
Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
Don't forget the decision to admit a country into NATO has to be unanimous, Turkey will want something in return for agreeing.
Sweden's Foreign Minister put it very succinctly:

"If [we] were to decide to do take that alternative (joining NATO) I think we would get very, very strong support from large and important countries who are members with whom Turkey has an interest in having good relations"

Notwithstanding Erdogan's huffing and puffing, there is no way Turkey is going to veto either Sweden's or Finland's application to join NATO.
DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 16th May 2022, 14:30
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Budapest
Posts: 118
Originally Posted by Davef68 View Post
And Hungary may block them too - their President seems another Putin fanboy
Wrong. And Hungary's President is female - and has condemned Putin's actions.
Expatrick is offline  
Old 16th May 2022, 21:31
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 75
Originally Posted by Davef68 View Post
And Hungary may block them too - their President seems another Putin fanboy
You have confused PM and President 👍
macmp419 is online now  
Old 17th May 2022, 08:10
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 1,500
Originally Posted by macmp419 View Post
You have confused PM and President 👍
I have indeed. these two tier democracies confuse my old brain! Apologies to the Hungarian President (If she reads this)
Davef68 is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 16:41
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Outer ring of HEL
Posts: 942
The Foreign Minister of Finland mr. Pekka Haavisto has just signed the letter requesting to join NATO. To my understanding mr. Jens Stoltenberg will receive it tomorrow.

here's the letter,

Your Excellency,

the President of the Republic of Finland has decided to confirm to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization Finland's interest to accede to the North Atlantic Treaty and in engaging in the accession talks with NATO. The Parliament of Finland was heard in the process.

I have therefore the honor to convey this interest to you on behalf of the Government of Finland.

I would also like to confirm that Finlandís decision to apply for NATO membership enjoys wide parliamentary and public support.

Yours sincerely,

Pekka Haavisto

Minister for Foreign Affairs

Finland
https://valtioneuvosto.fi/en/-/10616/finland-declares-its-interest-to-accede-to-nato
Beamr is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 22:21
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NEW YORK
Posts: 1,273
Originally Posted by Beamr View Post
theres a slight difference in the level of diplomacy as the Russian fleet is doing their deed as uninvited but the US fleet has been invited.
The Russian fleet is killing innocent women, children and men while actively invading a sovereign country. Meanwhile the US fleet is practicing with friends how to protect the innocent civilians from an unjust attack.

The main difference being as always: were you invited or not.
No argument on that aspect, my point was solely that big ships in confined seas are demonstrably very vulnerable, which undercuts their utility as a show of force.
etudiant is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 03:52
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Outer ring of HEL
Posts: 942
My misunderstanding, apologies.

I am no navak warfare expert but I would say that the Russians don't even dream of making an attack against any US asset after their categorical failure to use any military force in Ukraine. So I'd say it's a rather safe way to deliver a message.
Beamr is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 04:40
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Washington.
Age: 72
Posts: 762
Originally Posted by Beamr View Post
My misunderstanding, apologies.

I am no navak warfare expert but I would say that the Russians don't even dream of making an attack against any US asset after their categorical failure to use any military force in Ukraine. So I'd say it's a rather safe way to deliver a message.
Probably so, but so far Putinís most effective weapons are threats, and I wouldnít put much stock in hopes of rational behavior.
GlobalNav is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 06:14
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Outer ring of HEL
Posts: 942
The Finnish and Swedish applications has been handed over to NATO.

Happens at 16:45 in the video on the tweet.

Beamr is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 07:00
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 4,427
" my point was solely that big ships in confined seas are demonstrably very vulnerable"

It's 75+ years since big ships were used in any seas in large numbers. I suspect we'd be in for a shock if it ever happened now. Attack options have come on a lot further than defensive ones since 1945.
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 14:00
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 63
Posts: 5,975
Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
It's 75+ years since big ships were used in any seas in large numbers. I suspect we'd be in for a shock if it ever happened now. Attack options have come on a lot further than defensive ones since 1945.
Do you know how many CVBGs were in the Persian Gulf for the 1991 war? (Yeah, that was 30 years ago). I think it was four. (Well, three then four, memory was imperfect there). The other two were in the Red Sea. Also in the PG was a major amphibious flotilla, and plenty of Cruisers, Destroyers, Frigates, and supply ships. Lots of big ships there.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 15:04
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 689
I wonder how long it is since one big ship sank another big ship directly as distinct from the use of air power?
Ninthace is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 16:10
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: dallas
Posts: 27
Erdogan refuses admission of Nordic countries into NATO he wonít budge no matter what there is the end of the proposal
i donít see see any way around it diplomatically or otherwise
wonder how much Putin influences Erdogan decision
magyarflyer is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 17:14
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 63
Posts: 5,975
Originally Posted by magyarflyer View Post
Erdogan refuses admission of Nordic countries into NATO he won’t budge no matter what there is the end of the proposal
i don’t see see any way around it diplomatically or otherwise
wonder how much Putin influences Erdogan decision
I think that Turkey is looking to take advantage of any Russian problems in the Black Sea area.
Some interesting commentary from a Turkish observer here in that regard.
Granted, he's an analyst, not a foreign minister or a prime minister.
Spoiler
 



Erdogan sees a situation that he can turn to his advantage, so he's going to make the most of it. And what he wants are concessions, or perhaps more 'yes' votes from Sweden and Finland and Germany (etc) as regards Turkey joining EU, among other things. (Yes, that's a bit of speculation on my part).
Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
I wonder how long it is since one big ship sank another big ship directly as distinct from the use of air power?
Are you including collisions at sea in that musing?
Lonewolf_50 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.