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Discrimination and Prejudice alive and well in the RAF

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Discrimination and Prejudice alive and well in the RAF

Old 9th May 2022, 07:43
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RichardJones View Post
Indeed. However, you can't teach ability.
Military training tends to weed out those with less ablitity at the beginning.
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Old 9th May 2022, 08:32
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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This belief that people a 'born' aviators is bolleaux - training and exposure create aircrew so actually you can 'teach ability'.

My major role as a SAR QHI on an operational Sqn was to take pilots just out of the training pipeline and turn them into operational SAR Captains - that doesn't happen overnight, it takes time both to hone handling skills (and teach new ones) and teach decision-making, prioritisation and CRM.

The same happens in all front-line Sqns/OCUs - you take the raw material from the training system - guys and girls who can fly (some better than others) - and turn them into proper pilots.

Most will tell you that although flying training was hard, the real learning and raising of ability occurred after they got their wings.
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Old 9th May 2022, 13:17
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
This belief that people a 'born' aviators is bolleaux - training and exposure create aircrew so actually you can 'teach ability'.

My major role as a SAR QHI on an operational Sqn was to take pilots just out of the training pipeline and turn them into operational SAR Captains - that doesn't happen overnight, it takes time both to hone handling skills (and teach new ones) and teach decision-making, prioritisation and CRM.

The same happens in all front-line Sqns/OCUs - you take the raw material from the training system - guys and girls who can fly (some better than others) - and turn them into proper pilots.

Most will tell you that although flying training was hard, the real learning and raising of ability occurred after they got their wings.
Wise words, indeed.
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Old 9th May 2022, 13:38
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RichardJones View Post
Indeed. However, you can't teach ability.
Of course you can. Before being taught they are unable (to read or to fly etc... ) after learning they are able. You can also teach a skill (flying, forgery etc...) Not everyone can reach the same level though, aptitude and dedication play large parts.
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Old 9th May 2022, 14:50
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Are you suggesting you could teach a pig to fly? Not too much ability there, or is there?

"You can teach a Monkey to ride a bike, but you won't be able teach it to read much in the way of road signs".

End of.

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Old 9th May 2022, 15:06
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RichardJones View Post
Are you suggesting you could teach a pig to fly? Not too much ability there, or is there?

"You can teach a Monkey to ride a bike, but you won't be able teach it to read much in the way of road signs".

End of.
A totally spurious line of argument, not worth a moment longer than to condemn it.
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Old 9th May 2022, 15:28
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This belief that people a 'born' aviators is bolleaux - training and exposure create aircrew so actually you can 'teach ability'.
Sorry, Crab, I don't agree. From my own experience as a BFTS, FJ OCU and sqn QFI, you can't teach ability but you can certainly teach skills and performance. I flew with some people who were naturally gifted and others who were anything but - same training, same exposure, but very different results. Some lack the ability to achieve high levels of technical and operational competence and no amount of training/exposure will fix that, some will require much greater inputs to get there, and others will get there easily and go even further in performance terms.

I agree completely with you that the product of the training system is unfinished and that further training and exposure are required to extract whatever performance the individual has within them. Whatever the raw talent (ability or aptitude) someone has, it is meaningless without that training. Whatever the semantics of the argument, I think we can probably also agree that flying instruction is not an activity that should be entrusted to those who have failed to make sufficient progress towards higher levels of proficiency. At its most basic level, you need to put good (ie competent) people into training roles. Garbage in, garbage out!
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Old 9th May 2022, 15:40
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Fortissimo - you don't allow for the late developers - I've seen plenty of pilots blossom later than some of their - initially - more able peers and go on to surpass them.

If that isn't an increase in ability born of practise and hard work, I don't know what is.

The difference is that the more able student often progresses faster and certainly that seems to be the benchmark for FJ selection - it is a useful metric but doesn't cover all bases.

I think we can probably also agree that flying instruction is not an activity that should be entrusted to those who have failed to make sufficient progress towards higher levels of proficiency.
yes, I concur but some of the worst instructors are those who found the whole thing too easy and then struggle to deal with a less gifted student.

Anyway we seem to have gone off-topic a bit now...

Last edited by [email protected]; 9th May 2022 at 15:57.
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Old 11th May 2022, 03:45
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Fortissimo - you don't allow for the late developers - I've seen plenty of pilots blossom later than some of their - initially - more able peers and go on to surpass them.

If that isn't an increase in ability born of practise and hard work, I don't know what is.

The difference is that the more able student often progresses faster and certainly that seems to be the benchmark for FJ selection - it is a useful metric but doesn't cover all bases.

yes, I concur but some of the worst instructors are those who found the whole thing too easy and then struggle to deal with a less gifted student.

Anyway we seem to have gone off-topic a bit now...
Agree with a but. The slow progress' are often weeded out due to rate of learning. Nothing to say that they could not have made the grade with more time but that in itself is an indicator of potential. Of all the suspended students that I have seen there is probably a good 50% that could have passed given more time. In fact I would say I could get 90% of the students across the line if given the time but in a lot of those cases that just passes the problem onto the squadrons. Rate of learning in itself is a significant indicator.

Also agree on those naturally gifted not all making good instructors. They lack the experience and empathy to understand the struggling student. I remember one in particular who just could not understand what was apparently so obvious, to him, why his student could not get it.
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Old 11th May 2022, 08:05
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Originally Posted by finestkind View Post
Agree with a but. The slow progress' are often weeded out due to rate of learning. Nothing to say that they could not have made the grade with more time but that in itself is an indicator of potential. Of all the suspended students that I have seen there is probably a good 50% that could have passed given more time. In fact I would say I could get 90% of the students across the line if given the time but in a lot of those cases that just passes the problem onto the squadrons. Rate of learning in itself is a significant indicator.

Also agree on those naturally gifted not all making good instructors. They lack the experience and empathy to understand the struggling student. I remember one in particular who just could not understand what was apparently so obvious, to him, why his student could not get it.
Indeed.

A person may be an ace at their trade, but if they can't put it across/teach it on to the student, they aren't the people to mark as trainers IMHO. We are all aware there is a lot of psychology involved in this sought of teaching, instructing or training. One either has it or they don't.
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Old 11th May 2022, 08:35
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Finestkind - you are right and it is probably the difference between FJ and RW streams - in the RW world we are happier to invest more time and effort in what is already a well-trained product - the FJ world seems to have always been happy to be a funnel with a big top and a very small bottom so that only the quickest assimilators of skills get through.

Personally I think this is a waste of manpower and our obsession with having the best of the best is not very efficient - lucky we don't have many cockpits to fill any more

This starts at OASC - or whatever it is called today - I was informed by one of their staff that just passing aptitude tests wasn't enough any more - they were only recruiting from those who score in excess of 30 points above the pass mark.

Trouble is, as I'm sure someone will point out, the training system has been fiddled with and slowed down too many times and is only just (certainly on the RW side) starting to function properly.
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Old 11th May 2022, 08:41
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"Personally I think this is a waste of manpower and our obsession with having the best of the best is not very efficient - lucky we don't have many cockpits to fill any more"

This is of course the point - the Pre-1937 RAF was very much an elite organisation who only recruited a very small number of flying crew

When you're losing 4-5% of your bomber crews in every operation you take a different view on what is "acceptable"

If the RAF were suddenly given the money to buy and operate 200 F-35's you'd see a sudden drop in the pass marks all round

Standards are not absolutes - they exist to produce ENOUGH people
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Old 11th May 2022, 11:40
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"Personally I think this is a waste of manpower and our obsession with having the best of the best is not very efficient - lucky we don't have many cockpits to fill any more "

You mean the "best of the best" that made the cut at the academic qualifications stage.

Discrimination?

Last edited by RichardJones; 11th May 2022 at 11:53.
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Old 11th May 2022, 12:26
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RichardJones View Post
"Personally I think this is a waste of manpower and our obsession with having the best of the best is not very efficient - lucky we don't have many cockpits to fill any more "

You mean the "best of the best" that made the cut at the academic qualifications stage.

Discrimination?
RJ

the academics qualification is the very first step. Then comes CBAT. Once the results from that come through and IF you are successful with OASC, then itís MIOT. Only then, if successful, do you attend EFT after ground trg.

You might have 10 A levels but if you donít pass the pilot aptitude part of the CBAT, then you wonít even be considered for that. Perhaps another role but only after passing OASC and then MIOT.

Conversely, you may only have the bare minimum academic requirement for pilot but ace the pilot CBAT. Even then, you may fail OASC or MIOT.

Discrimination is absolutely never a factor.
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Old 12th May 2022, 11:30
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Originally Posted by RichardJones View Post
"Personally I think this is a waste of manpower and our obsession with having the best of the best is not very efficient - lucky we don't have many cockpits to fill any more "

You mean the "best of the best" that made the cut at the academic qualifications stage.

Discrimination?
Call it discrimination if you wish or a filter. When you have more applying than possibly can be processed than a simple filter such as min education required is applied. Medical standards is another. Both these can be eased or increased reasonably simply. Both of these have been eased to what they once where in the ADF . From the applicants side you can improve your education and there are some medical medical requirements that have changed plus either correct or challenge.
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Old 13th May 2022, 08:36
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Originally Posted by finestkind View Post
Call it discrimination if you wish or a filter. When you have more applying than possibly can be processed than a simple filter such as min education required is applied. Medical standards is another. Both these can be eased or increased reasonably simply. Both of these have been eased to what they once where in the ADF . From the applicants side you can improve your education and there are some medical medical requirements that have changed plus either correct or challenge.
Thanks for taking the time to explain that. Makes sense.
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Old 13th May 2022, 08:55
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Originally Posted by Toadstool View Post
RJ

the academics qualification is the very first step. Then comes CBAT. Once the results from that come through and IF you are successful with OASC, then itís MIOT. Only then, if successful, do you attend EFT after ground trg.

You might have 10 A levels but if you donít pass the pilot aptitude part of the CBAT, then you wonít even be considered for that. Perhaps another role but only after passing OASC and then MIOT.

Conversely, you may only have the bare minimum academic requirement for pilot but ace the pilot CBAT. Even then, you may fail OASC or MIOT.

Discrimination is absolutely never a factor.
Thankyou for the information. Well put.

I am also aware, the person who has paid attention during formal education and achieved the academic qualifications, deserve the privileges. Not sow grapes.

Unfortunately for me I was never able to settle down at school. I have known one or 2, go back to night school to get qualified. Good for them too.

Considering recent goings on in the Ukraine, FJ jockeys for e.g., aren't being utilised to the same extent as in previous heavy debates. The military can really be choosy.
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Old 13th May 2022, 10:43
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In historical context, a very good filter for enlistment before the Great War was height. Very simple: if you needed more [voluntary] men, you lowered the height, and vice versa. The Foot Guards minimum height standard changed more often than I change my socks.
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Old 13th May 2022, 12:54
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RichardJones View Post
Are you suggesting you could teach a pig to fly? Not too much ability there, or is there?

"You can teach a Monkey to ride a bike, but you won't be able teach it to read much in the way of road signs".

End of.
Actually this theory is incorrect not because of the apptitude of the average pig you're likely to encounter, but rather because it is equipped with trotters and not human style hands. Therefore, I believe pigs to lack the require level of dexterity, and not forgetting their ability to reach instruments in the cockpit/flightdeck etc, this would pose another obstacle to pigs getting their pilots' brevet. Furthermore, there is the question of speech, a pig and other animals may be able to understand and receive complex instructions, but they would be a liability in the air simply because they are unable to form words, in any known human language. Except for Sausages, and only then when aided with a human finger.

FB
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Old 14th May 2022, 00:25
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Originally Posted by Finningley Boy View Post
Actually this theory is incorrect not because of the apptitude of the average pig you're likely to encounter, but rather because it is equipped with trotters and not human style hands. Therefore, I believe pigs to lack the require level of dexterity, and not forgetting their ability to reach instruments in the cockpit/flightdeck etc, this would pose another obstacle to pigs getting their pilots' brevet. Furthermore, there is the question of speech, a pig and other animals may be able to understand and receive complex instructions, but they would be a liability in the air simply because they are unable to form words, in any known human language. Except for Sausages, and only then when aided with a human finger.

FB
Many thanks for taking the time and effort, to produce a load of such interesting, but useless information.

Last edited by RichardJones; 14th May 2022 at 00:37.
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