Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Discrimination and Prejudice alive and well in the RAF

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Discrimination and Prejudice alive and well in the RAF

Old 6th May 2022, 20:12
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Here and there.
Posts: 1,037
Originally Posted by Blacksheep View Post
I once upset the pilots in the crew room by stating the obvious truth that the RAF was the only service that sent their officers off to fight and die for their country, while the ground staff went down the pub and drank all the beer.

Possibly not quite the case if Ivan had started chucking sunshine at us, of course.
Yeh, nothing worse than warm beer :-)
SATCOS WHIPPING BOY is offline  
Old 7th May 2022, 09:29
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: not scotland
Posts: 264
As one of the very few serving members on here (35 years and counting), my opinion on this is the following.

1. Iím not outraged or disgusted as some of the posters. I will though, be having interesting discussions right up my CoC about how the message in this email directly contradicts the mandatory D&I training that we currently do.

2. The RAF is trying to be and recruit more diverse people. This is nothing to do with quotas, but is about ensuring that we get to choose the best people from as wide a sphere as possible.

3. Having been involved in phase 1 training, is is clear that, while we are becoming more diverse, there still exists a disparity in who we recruit from as opposed to who we would like to recruit from. Again, this is to ensure that we have a wider pool from which to choose the best.

4. There are no shortcuts or lessening of standards. If one is good enough to be selected as a FJ pilot, regardless of anything,and subsequently passes the rigorous training, then they are good enough.

5. Everyone should do their research before attending OASC. If they did, they would quickly find out the sex, colour and branch of every CAS. Is that enough to turn away prospective recruits because of a perceived lack of diversity? If it is, then we are choosing the best from a smaller pool.

6. I donít care about colour, sex, sexuality or any other factor, I only care about whether that person can do the job they were selected to do. When I joined, sexism, racism and homophobia was rife. Thankfully the armed forces are currently in a much better place.

7. For those that say we are not getting our priorities straight, itís not binary. We can be diverse and war fight. Look at those relatively younger people currently serving, with their chests full of campaign medals, and tell me we are too ďwokeĒ.

Last edited by Toadstool; 7th May 2022 at 09:44.
Toadstool is offline  
Old 7th May 2022, 10:45
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Great Britain
Age: 55
Posts: 320
Originally Posted by alfred_the_great View Post
or the aptitude was designed for 18-21 year old males as the “norm”, a long time ago and haven’t been upgraded…

”best” is generally subjective, and absolutely subject to conservative bias, sunk cost fallacies, and cultural barriers to change.

put it this way, if F-35 were the only basis for selection, the test would be different to selection for GR7/FA2…
They are updated and adapted on a regular basis. The Lead Psychologist that oversees the aptitude test’s design is a woman (a biological one) and also would tick the so-called “BAME” box (a term that many despise and the RAF should stop using). The tests are designed to ensure that you have the ability to pass the earlier stages of flying training (and other phase 2 training for other Branches/Professions). They are designed with an expectation that those under 24 will achieve the highest results. Just because you have a high aptitude score does not mean you will be successful to conduct the hardest flying roles - it just means that you are likely to pass early flying training. They have looked at CBAT, MicroPAT and the earlier mechanical aptitude tests to see whether high aptitude scores correlated to those that get streamed to fast jets and go on to fly single-seaters - they don’t correlate at all. However, the more recent CBAT and MicroPAT do correlate to a very low failure rate.

Some uncomfortable truths in that little lot…

Last edited by Corporal Clott; 7th May 2022 at 10:48. Reason: Spelling mistook
Corporal Clott is offline  
Old 7th May 2022, 17:11
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 138
Out of curiosity can anyone explain why the RAF has different fitness standards for males and females. Surely now that all jobs are open to both, the required fitness standard should be specified for the particular role in which the person wiill be employed?
ASRAAMTOO is offline  
Old 7th May 2022, 17:22
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Inverness
Posts: 40
Good question but not one that can be answered!

If you started a new thread with your question it would easily outstrip the #108 of this thread with strong views at both ends of the spectrum.
Nil_Drift is offline  
Old 7th May 2022, 20:45
  #106 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by ASRAAMTOO View Post
Out of curiosity can anyone explain why the RAF has different fitness standards for males and females. Surely now that all jobs are open to both, the required fitness standard should be specified for the particular role in which the person wiill be employed?
I could not agree more. Pure discrimination and it destroys any argument the forces have to say they promote equality. 2 applicants for a role. Same age, same job, same pay, same TORís, 1 candidate is male and 1 is female. The man must be able to run faster than the woman.

Completely indefensible.
Baldeep Inminj is online now  
Old 7th May 2022, 20:46
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: where-ever nav's chooses....
Posts: 738
Originally Posted by ASRAAMTOO View Post
Out of curiosity can anyone explain why the RAF has different fitness standards for males and females. Surely now that all jobs are open to both, the required fitness standard should be specified for the particular role in which the person wiill be employed?
In the RN, it was because the PTIs canít count.

the RNFT is being replaced with an age and gender (and sex) agnostic test. The problem is that no one really agrees with what being ďfitĒ in the RN should mean.
alfred_the_great is offline  
Old 7th May 2022, 21:53
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Narfalk
Posts: 390
Originally Posted by Toadstool View Post
As one of the very few serving members on here (35 years and counting), my opinion on this is the following.

1. Iím not outraged or disgusted as some of the posters. I will though, be having interesting discussions right up my CoC about how the message in this email directly contradicts the mandatory D&I training that we currently do.

2. The RAF is trying to be and recruit more diverse people. This is nothing to do with quotas, but is about ensuring that we get to choose the best people from as wide a sphere as possible.

3. Having been involved in phase 1 training, is is clear that, while we are becoming more diverse, there still exists a disparity in who we recruit from as opposed to who we would like to recruit from. Again, this is to ensure that we have a wider pool from which to choose the best.

4. There are no shortcuts or lessening of standards. If one is good enough to be selected as a FJ pilot, regardless of anything,and subsequently passes the rigorous training, then they are good enough.

5. Everyone should do their research before attending OASC. If they did, they would quickly find out the sex, colour and branch of every CAS. Is that enough to turn away prospective recruits because of a perceived lack of diversity? If it is, then we are choosing the best from a smaller pool.

6. I donít care about colour, sex, sexuality or any other factor, I only care about whether that person can do the job they were selected to do. When I joined, sexism, racism and homophobia was rife. Thankfully the armed forces are currently in a much better place.

7. For those that say we are not getting our priorities straight, itís not binary. We can be diverse and war fight. Look at those relatively younger people currently serving, with their chests full of campaign medals, and tell me we are too ďwokeĒ.
​​​​​​Hammer drives nail all the way in. Agree with you.
Cat Techie is offline  
Old 7th May 2022, 22:32
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 23,327
I have to agree as well, all this crap is simply detracting from the core goals and values of the RAF, yes there are problems, yes there are faults, but the current war ongoing in Ukraine is showing in no uncertain terms how a modern western force, the RAF included, is so far ahead of the curve in respect of the perceived opposition in both capability and quality that we must be doing something right.
NutLoose is online now  
Old 8th May 2022, 01:28
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SAUDI
Posts: 381
The point of most posts are that "I don't care if they are............ as long as they can do the job". If so the testing, training, and basic requirement's (fitness test) should all be the same. We acknowledge the physical differences between genders, why do we, and I think we are, not acknowledge the psychological differences. One being multi tasking in which the female gender appears to be superior and in an aviation world were hack rack and zoom is taking a second place to systems operation this becomes a core aptitude. RAAF aptitude testing was male bias until a few years ago. Not surprising considering little if any changes in the preceding 40, 50, or even 80 years and not utilised to keep females out just developed as it was a male environment. Quota's have been used to the detriment of standard's. By allowing a lower standard applicant through based on whatever means either changing standards to allow a pass (moving the problem onto the squadron) or nullifying the reason to do so, allowing more role models, in that there are more failures. Don't know the answer.
finestkind is offline  
Old 8th May 2022, 07:28
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2022
Location: Merseyside
Posts: 1
Because they havenít been sued yet.
WillNorris81 is offline  
Old 8th May 2022, 11:52
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Yes
Posts: 42
This is getting out of hand now. I also have been discriminated against, for having a white skin. Next it will be, you're out of favour if you're straight.
RichardJones is offline  
Old 8th May 2022, 12:20
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Yes
Posts: 42
2. The RAF is trying to be and recruit more diverse people. This is nothing to do with quotas, but is about ensuring that we get to choose the best people from as wide a sphere as possible.

Thread drift, if I may.

The above is interesting.

What is the RAF requirement for selection as aircrew, for example, as far as academic qualifications are concerned? Quite high I would expect. So those who don't make the cut, are weeded out before any aptitude for flying, is considered. This doesn't fit with your comment above.

Dragged up in a poor family I left school at 15, knowing up to 12 x table. I went the self improver route, and was flying professionally at 20. UK ATPL 1978, at 26. I classed myself as an aviator, not a mathematician. I'm not implying I would have made it into the RAF on flying ability. However I would not even qualify to enroll at a ATO now.
RichardJones is offline  
Old 8th May 2022, 13:15
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: not scotland
Posts: 264
Originally Posted by RichardJones View Post
2. The RAF is trying to be and recruit more diverse people. This is nothing to do with quotas, but is about ensuring that we get to choose the best people from as wide a sphere as possible.

Thread drift, if I may.

The above is interesting.

What is the RAF requirement for selection as aircrew, for example, as far as academic qualifications are concerned? Quite high I would expect. So those who don't make the cut, are weeded out before any aptitude for flying, is considered. This doesn't fit with your comment above.

Dragged up in a poor family I left school at 15, knowing up to 12 x table. I went the self improver route, and was flying professionally at 20. UK ATPL 1978, at 26. I classed myself as an aviator, not a mathematician. I'm not implying I would have made it into the RAF on flying ability. However I would not even qualify to enroll at a ATO now.
I mentioned diversity, not aptitude but, of course the RAF (Officers and Aircrew) expects a certain standard and aptitude to be met before additional selection with CBAT and OASC. This is before they even get to phase one trg.

APPLICANTS MUST:

  • Be aged 17.5 Ė 23 years old (Must enter IOT before 24th birthday)
  • Have GCSEs at Grade C/4 or SNE at Grade 5 or SCE Standard Grades at Grade 2/SNE 5 in English and Maths and at least three other subjects. Have at least 2 A2 Levels/3 Highers at Grade C or above (excluding General Studies, Critical Thinking or Citizenship Studies) which must total a minimum of 64 UCAS points
  • Be a citizen of the United Kingdom or holder of dual UK/ other nationality
  • Commit to minimum 12 years service
  • Meet the health and fitness criteria
  • Pass a Fitness test - Details below
  • Candidates must be able to swim - see details below

Last edited by Toadstool; 8th May 2022 at 13:28.
Toadstool is offline  
Old 8th May 2022, 13:16
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: not scotland
Posts: 264
Originally Posted by RichardJones View Post
This is getting out of hand now. I also have been discriminated against, for having a white skin. Next it will be, you're out of favour if you're straight.
Not in the RAF.
Toadstool is offline  
Old 8th May 2022, 13:17
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: England
Posts: 24
[QUOTE=RichardJones;11226975]

Dragged up in a poor family I left school at 15, knowing up to 12 x table.

​​​​​​Wasted effort - I've never used more than the 3 X table!
Darkmouse is offline  
Old 8th May 2022, 14:08
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,125
Regarding fitness, BBC2 at 20:00 tonight 8th May looks interesting:

This is the behind-the-scenes story of one of the most famous military units on earth. The Royal Marine Commandos are globally renowned and nationally revered, and yet widely misunderstood.

With unprecedented access to all ranks, the series uncovers the role of a Commando in the present day through a rarely seen glimpse behind closed doors and the lives of the ‘Corps Family’, men and women who make up this extraordinary organisation, from the highest echelons right through to fresh-faced recruits and the not so fresh, but experienced faces of committed Royal Marine veterans.

Danger and drama are part of the daily routine, with risk and rescues simply part of the job. This is the story of the world’s first responders; from international threats to UK interests, to environmental disasters, Britain’s elite sea-borne raiders, are the proud descendants of 350 years of military excellence.

The series follows both national and international operations. Commandos are a global emergency service - from the Arctic to Anglesey.
BEagle is online now  
Old 8th May 2022, 14:29
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Yes
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by Toadstool View Post
I mentioned diversity, not aptitude but, of course the RAF (Officers and Aircrew) expects a certain standard and aptitude to be met before additional selection with CBAT and OASC. This is before they even get to phase one trg.

APPLICANTS MUST:

  • Be aged 17.5 Ė 23 years old (Must enter IOT before 24th birthday)
  • Have GCSEs at Grade C/4 or SNE at Grade 5 or SCE Standard Grades at Grade 2/SNE 5 in English and Maths and at least three other subjects. Have at least 2 A2 Levels/3 Highers at Grade C or above (excluding General Studies, Critical Thinking or Citizenship Studies) which must total a minimum of 64 UCAS points
  • Be a citizen of the United Kingdom or holder of dual UK/ other nationality
  • Commit to minimum 12 years service
  • Meet the health and fitness criteria
  • Pass a Fitness test - Details below
  • Candidates must be able to swim - see details below
Thankyou for that.
RichardJones is offline  
Old 8th May 2022, 22:59
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Narfalk
Posts: 390
Originally Posted by RichardJones View Post
2. The RAF is trying to be and recruit more diverse people. This is nothing to do with quotas, but is about ensuring that we get to choose the best people from as wide a sphere as possible.

Thread drift, if I may.

The above is interesting.

What is the RAF requirement for selection as aircrew, for example, as far as academic qualifications are concerned? Quite high I would expect. So those who don't make the cut, are weeded out before any aptitude for flying, is considered. This doesn't fit with your comment above.

Dragged up in a poor family I left school at 15, knowing up to 12 x table. I went the self improver route, and was flying professionally at 20. UK ATPL 1978, at 26. I classed myself as an aviator, not a mathematician. I'm not implying I would have made it into the RAF on flying ability. However I would not even qualify to enroll at a ATO now.
You can fly. Do you have the ability to use your aircraft as a fighting machine and fly it at the same time? I have been fortunate to see both sides of the fence. All the dynamic pilots I have seen in the military can do so. Their ability shines through in all they do. I have seen some ATPL drivers that scare me in a car with their inability to multi task. How they can be classed to be safe to fly! A sad fact.
Cat Techie is offline  
Old 9th May 2022, 07:38
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Yes
Posts: 42
Indeed. However, you can't teach ability.
RichardJones is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.