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Moskva down

Old 20th Apr 2022, 15:49
  #361 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
I don't think that there is one. The loss of face has already occurred.
The more practical question is what degree of, or level of, sanctions relief will be achievable via negotiations once a cease fire is arranged?
(And that will eventually come to pass, hopefully sooner than later).
Putin could fall out of the window of his secret underground bunker?
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 19:22
  #362 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Putin could fall out of the window of his secret underground bunker?
I'm thinking that 'they' could simply declare Putin a traitor to Mother Russia, that intentionally mislead his country into this ill-fated attack, and arrest him (never to be seen from again). I recall it was quite the surprise when Khrushchev was deposed, perhaps it could happen again...
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 20:29
  #363 (permalink)  
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I have moved the thread digression based on a political rant to Jet Blast.
DDG-37 the Mil Av forum isn't where you grind that political ax.
Please take that sort of topic to Jet Blast.

Further guidance is provided here
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 21:40
  #364 (permalink)  
 
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I would have thought that there were NATO assets surveilling the whole area 24/7 from ground/air/sea and LEO, so headlines that the Moskva was being tracked are true but not really worthy of mention, as anything larger than a squirrel with a tin hat on would be getting attention from military AI...
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 22:01
  #365 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
What would be credible exit scenarios for the Russian government to end this war without losing face?
Except for complete denial of obvious truths, Putin has irreversibly lost face already. No avoiding that. Survival should be his primary objective, not esteem. Best move for now would be to remove Russian forces from all Ukrainian territories, stand down and face the music re: sanctions, reparations and International Criminal Court.
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 23:09
  #366 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GlobalNav View Post
Except for complete denial of obvious truths, Putin has irreversibly lost face already. No avoiding that. Survival should be his primary objective, not esteem. Best move for now would be to remove Russian forces from all Ukrainian territories, stand down and face the music re: sanctions, reparations and International Criminal Court.
Sadly and Historically, Dictators such as Tsar Vladovich have form in their “personality” traits and the “yes” men they surround themselves with.

Their lot is all or all, no nothing. It only ends in “Victory” or their own death by a self, close circle or public termination of their horrid existence. There are of course a few very rare exceptions, Idi Amin being one. I doubt Vladovich would accept exile in China or North Korea (probably the only 2 countries that would have him).

Vladovich’s “reign” is mirroring the late Romanov’s, it is only the Russian people that can stop him and his thieving Corruptocrats.
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 23:33
  #367 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by petit plateau View Post
The whole point of the Russians putting a floating S300 battery with its radars & etc in that location is to emit like crazy, and shoot down everything they can reach over Ukraine or coming out of Ukraine. The Moskva gave the Russians coverage that they could not get from any other naval asset*, or from any available (non-threatened) shore location. The downside of being an emitter is that triangulation is a thing. And then somebody gets a precise ID and more accurate location and bad things happen.

* The other Russian vessels have much shorter range anti-air missile systems and associated radars. There is basically now a very significant hole in the Russian coverage that I am sure is receiving attention by all sorts of people.
Well, that is a tactic, expensive on hulls but it is an option. A continuous emitter is going to be an invitation for the other side to assist in saving on fleet maintenance costs by scratching the skimmer from the fleet. The Russians have AEW capability, sort of, from within their own national boundaries that would seem to be without the risk of loss of hundreds of conscripted crew per target, and the ire from the families about being lied to by the Kremlin.

I really think that the whole Russian fleet should be emitting, it helps the Ukrainians, who could use more help from the Russian Navy much as they have been assisted by the Russian army strategic planning and logistics system.
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Old 21st Apr 2022, 13:32
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Originally Posted by fdr View Post
Well, that is a tactic, expensive on hulls but it is an option. A continuous emitter is going to be an invitation for the other side to assist in saving on fleet maintenance costs by scratching the skimmer from the fleet. The Russians have AEW capability, sort of, from within their own national boundaries that would seem to be without the risk of loss of hundreds of conscripted crew per target, and the ire from the families about being lied to by the Kremlin.

I really think that the whole Russian fleet should be emitting, it helps the Ukrainians, who could use more help from the Russian Navy much as they have been assisted by the Russian army strategic planning and logistics system.
The Moskva ought to have been able to handle the scenario, at least up until impact. Providing air defence for a task force over a large area is exactly what she was designed for. From the very limited information we have the observed (poor) performance seems most odd. I suspect there is a lot of the story that has yet to come out.

Suggesting that the Moskva should not have been emitting is like suggesting that any & all of the other S300 batteries should not be emitting in case they too become targets. That's not the way Integrated Air Defence Systems (IADS) work. Some things have to be emitters and take their chances. I don't think the Russians have done anything with their AEW assets on the south and east sides, so far I have only seen reports of them on the north side, often operating out of Belarus.

For Ukraine this is a very good result.
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Old 21st Apr 2022, 14:20
  #369 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by petit plateau View Post
The Moskva ought to have been able to handle the scenario, at least up until impact. Providing air defence for a task force over a large area is exactly what she was designed for. From the very limited information we have the observed (poor) performance seems most odd. I suspect there is a lot of the story that has yet to come out.

Suggesting that the Moskva should not have been emitting is like suggesting that any & all of the other S300 batteries should not be emitting in case they too become targets. That's not the way Integrated Air Defence Systems (IADS) work. Some things have to be emitters and take their chances. I don't think the Russians have done anything with their AEW assets on the south and east sides, so far I have only seen reports of them on the north side, often operating out of Belarus.

For Ukraine this is a very good result.
Good points. Running a Top Pair/Top Steer/Top Dome radar continuously on a boat, or a high screen/billboard or similar on the turf, would be a magnet for an ARM which the Russians have in some number, apparently enough of those to fire them off boresight without an emitter evident, but anyway, there is enough RF out there to be radiating when you have an expected need. Not big on helping the other side. If the RFS "Ronson" was a radar picket ship, then that too was an unfortunate choice. It was the flagship of the fleet, back in the day, radar pickets if required were not usually the capital ship of the fleet. Maybe tactics have changed, but it is a great thing to have an emitter sitting on the top of the tub you want to splash. The Ropucha's have Air/Surface search radars... maybe they are worth more than the Ronson.

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Old 21st Apr 2022, 20:35
  #370 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by petit plateau View Post
Providing air defence for a task force over a large area is exactly what she was designed for.
She was not designed for that, she was designed to glass cannon herself into carrier task force. Her radar and AAW systems were desgined to her alive long enough against the carriers fighters long enough to launch her missiles. Her survival time in this situation was measured in hours.
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Old 22nd Apr 2022, 11:01
  #371 (permalink)  
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Ukraine doing a bit of trolling…

Ukraine’s government has officially registered the Moskva cruiser wreck on the Black Sea bottom as a national underwater cultural heritage site
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Old 22nd Apr 2022, 11:13
  #372 (permalink)  
 
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Wonderful to see a sense of humour being demonstrated in such awful times.
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Old 22nd Apr 2022, 13:27
  #373 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rattman View Post
She was not designed for that, she was designed to glass cannon herself into carrier task force. Her radar and AAW systems were desgined to her alive long enough against the carriers fighters long enough to launch her missiles. Her survival time in this situation was measured in hours.
That is a fair description of any Russian design. Western designs of that vintage had projected lifespans of a very similar magnitude in that scenario.

(The S300 etc on the Moskva ought not to have been just for show. I think there is a lot more about this engagement that we still don't know.)
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Old 22nd Apr 2022, 13:41
  #374 (permalink)  
 
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From the link I posted in jetblast.

The Russian Navy continues operating in the Black Sea, Operational Command South reports. It continues to block civilian shipping. The Black Sea Fleet conducts maritime surveillance, building a recognized maritime picture. It also searches the site where Russia’s Black Sea flagship Moskva sank. (The navy might be searching for traces of radiation from the nuclear weapons the warship most probably was carrying, or simply searching for missing sailors – HPM).
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Old 22nd Apr 2022, 15:57
  #375 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Toadstool View Post
I don’t suppose you could call the EC130 Compass Call a “tactical” EW aircraft but it performs much the same role as the growler.
Surely nothing beats a Growler ?
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Old 22nd Apr 2022, 19:58
  #376 (permalink)  
 
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I kinda surprised people thought the Moskva would survive anything. The US has demonstrated multiple times that correctly applied EW reduces the best missile air defense system to unguided rockets. I'm sure the UA got some equipment and help to do this.
That's with the assumption that the Moskva was even able to perform to begin with.
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Old 22nd Apr 2022, 20:54
  #377 (permalink)  
 
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Russia Deploys Unusual 110-Year-Old Ship To Investigate Moskva Wreck

Kommuna set to investigate Moskva Wreck


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Old 22nd Apr 2022, 22:09
  #378 (permalink)  
 
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I have photocopies of a proposal my grandfather submitted to the Admiralty for a submarine rescue ship in 1906, complete with drawings. (The originals I sent on permanent loan to the submarine museum)
The layout of the ship he proposed is exactly that of the Kommuna, but slightly smaller. (220' length, 40'beam, against 310 X 60). Submarines were pretty small in 1906.
Attached is a letter from the Admiralty, saying that he was to be commended for his efforts, but that it was not proposed to adopt them.
In the same letter, he proposed that submarines should have a bouy installed in the casing, which could be released from inside the boat if it could not.surface.
When I joined Coastal Command in 1964, I realised that every submarine in the world carried such a bouy,(Or more usually two.)
Perhaps I should demand royalties from the world's navies, and use the funds to endow a lifeboat in his name.
Since he made his proposal in 1906, and Russia stated Kommuna in 1911, perhaps there was a mole in The Admiralty.
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Old 22nd Apr 2022, 22:36
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Originally Posted by WillFlyForCheese View Post

Russia Deploys Unusual 110-Year-Old Ship To Investigate Moskva Wreck

Kommuna set to investigate Moskva Wreck

Must be something down there that they are keen to recover if they are deploying that.

Hope it goes the same way as Moskva if it even makes it that far.
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Old 22nd Apr 2022, 23:32
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That reminds me of the USA secret recovery of a Soviet sub under the guise of mining manganese nodules off the seabed.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...law-180972154/

I would imagine weapons, technology, radar, codes etc are on the recovery list.

They will be buggered if the Ukrainians drop that one on top of it.
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