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OpSec issues from Ukraine War

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OpSec issues from Ukraine War

Old 20th Mar 2022, 18:11
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I wonder if the Russians have considered infiltrating spotter groups.

It would be, apparently, a much more efficient and effective means of finding out what the baddies are doing instead of the traditional intelligence gathering activities which are, no doubt, continuing as we speak.
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Old 20th Mar 2022, 18:32
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Krain
Originally Posted by Chesty Morgan View Post
I wonder if the Russians have considered infiltrating spotter groups.
It would be, apparently, a much more efficient and effective means of finding out what the baddies are doing instead of the traditional intelligence gathering activities which are, no doubt, continuing as we speak.
???
You mean those pesky spotter groups on the Ukrainian Air bases?
Or do you think they are so bored by this war in Ukraine that they are already dealing with other stuff in parallel to keep the boredom at bay?
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Old 20th Mar 2022, 18:36
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Originally Posted by Chesty Morgan View Post
I wonder if the Russians have considered infiltrating spotter groups.

It would be, apparently, a much more efficient and effective means of finding out what the baddies are doing instead of the traditional intelligence gathering activities which are, no doubt, continuing as we speak.
They have been infiltrating PPRuNe, for sure ...
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Old 20th Mar 2022, 21:03
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Originally Posted by fab777 View Post
They have been infiltrating PPRuNe, for sure ...
And learned how much we love and respect them, no doubt.
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Old 20th Mar 2022, 21:19
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Not long after Gulf War 2 I saw a report on RN refuelling ops just outside the Gulf at a classified position which was often changed for reasons of security.
Well, I checked a AIS ship spotting site and there was a UK tanker loitering in the area happily broadcasting its location to the world.
I contacted a Tanker Mooring Master friend who was ex-RN, He contacted a RN friend of some high rank and told him the tanker’s name , location, track were readily available on the internet and that someone had probably not turned off the guilty AIS box. The fellow was most surprised to learn of this and said some very bad words.
By the next morning it was off and probably disconnected with extreme prejudice. I would have liked to have seen a copy of that message from Admiralty to the Commander of the vessel concerned and seen his reaction. There were probably some new rules and procedures promulgated ASAP.
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Old 20th Mar 2022, 22:41
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Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
Oh do get a grip for gawd sake!

OPSEC? BEADWINDOW? Security breaches?

If you seriously consider for one split second that some Russian intelligence types, poring over their numerous satellite images, long range IR, night vision and recce images, ELINT, HUMINT and numerous other info sources, will cast all that aside with the cry "hold on, ignore all that! Some ex Vulcan jockey on PPRuNe thinks that we might be wrong in some of what we are doing!" then you are SO deluded that it is embarrassing!

As for the rest, all that is posted here is a repost of stuff already posted elsewhere and often by the Ukranians or UK MoD themselves. You are massively overstating your importance or significance if you think that any of this is any kind of security breach.

я українецьya ukrayinetsʹ
Indeed. The word is ex. We don't see anyone on here that is not. I may have been seen with **** whom maybe. He tells me nothing and I don't expect him to either.
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Old 20th Mar 2022, 22:59
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Originally Posted by Doctor Cruces View Post
Can't see any of the fighters or other stuff that the tankers are there for though. I would suggest that NATO want the Russians to know they're there.
Occasionally one or two pop up, like the USAF F-35A that did a tour of Poland a week or so back. Which I suspect was entirely intentional.

Similarly, it's not uncommon to see RAF Typhoons on ADSB coming out of Cyprus, but for the transponder to be turned off as they turn north. And these large tanker aircraft aren't flying oblongs around Eastern Europe for nothing.

I think the general public, and indeed some of the 'enthusiast' community, have no idea about what may or may not be useful. Anyone who has served in the military is steeped in the idea that information is kept confidential and compartmentalised, not just 'no need to know' but 'no need to share'. The reason there was a need for the 'Careless Talk Costs Lifes' campaign is that most outside the Forces 'bubble' don't appreciate what OPSEC involves.

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Old 20th Mar 2022, 23:11
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Loose Lips.

Originally Posted by Cat Techie View Post
Indeed. The word is ex. We don't see anyone on here that is not. I may have been seen with **** whom maybe. He tells me nothing and I don't expect him to either.
Shhh! Don't let them know that the availability of Vulcan pilots with currency is depleted.
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Old 21st Mar 2022, 00:56
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Given that the Russians don't seem to be able to get sandwiches to their troops, their commanders alive and any tactical progress, maybe a post on PPRuNe about where a certain aircraft was probably isnt as important to the decision makers as we might think ?
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Old 21st Mar 2022, 05:21
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Gosh, that Falklands report is an illuminating read.
Separate briefings - one for editors, another for firstline major media, another for second line.
Different MOD people, giving different information to each.
Several occasions where UXBs were openly discussed in front of journalists, and even mentioned in MOD releases, prior to the publication of the details of fusing etc.
Blimey...
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Old 21st Mar 2022, 05:57
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Wasn’t the Falklands I counted them all out and I counted them all back again the result of security issues and the BBC reporter being told not to release numbers of aircraft involved.
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Old 21st Mar 2022, 06:35
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Wasn’t the Falklands I counted them all out and I counted them all back again the result of security issues and the BBC reporter being told not to release numbers of aircraft involved.
Correct.
Brian Hanrahan - RIP.
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Old 21st Mar 2022, 07:37
  #113 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Wasn’t the Falklands I counted them all out and I counted them all back again the result of security issues and the BBC reporter being told not to release numbers of aircraft involved.
Nutty. As I recall he mentioned that as part of the broadcast in that he could not mention the number of aircraft operating but that all of them had returned safely.

As far as the general discussion here’s a thought. I was about to click on the sky news (UK) YouTube channel when up popped a link to an item from Forces News. Clearly, they have no idea about OPSEC as there was a reporter broadcasting from inside a V*****r refuelling T******s flying over Rom***a. I do hope someone from PPRuNe writes to them pointing out the error of their ways!



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Old 21st Mar 2022, 07:51
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Originally Posted by Usertim View Post
Really , for a start its the Daily mail , for a second they don't quote any sources. For a third , even if there were any Brit SOF in Ukraine , do you for a moment think their operational procedures include carrying their UK domestic cellphones around - lol!
On the other hand, if all of the squadrons personal phones go dark, one can draw intel from that too. Needs a chap to take all the phones down the local while the unit is on ops.
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Old 21st Mar 2022, 11:05
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Obviously I was slack in making my point clearly enough.
There is a a very real difference between reporting what HAS happened, what IS happening, and what WILL happen.
Read the three "headlines" and tell me which ones are news, and which ones are giving away useful information.

1. Yesterday, members of " Para attacked Goose Green.
2. Right now, members of 2 Para are attacking Goose Green.
3. Tomorrow 2 Para will attack Goose Green.


This is the kind of prevalent low-low information bandied around unchallenged on spotter's pages. The responsible groups stamp it out.


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Old 21st Mar 2022, 11:18
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Originally Posted by SATCOS WHIPPING BOY View Post
Obviously I was slack in making my point clearly enough.
There is a a very real difference between reporting what HAS happened, what IS happening, and what WILL happen.
Read the three "headlines" and tell me which ones are news, and which ones are giving away useful information.

1. Yesterday, members of " Para attacked Goose Green.
2. Right now, members of 2 Para are attacking Goose Green.
3. Tomorrow 2 Para will attack Goose Green.


This is the kind of prevalent low-low information bandied around unchallenged on spotter's pages. The responsible groups stamp it out.

​​​​​​Report it to the Station Execs that they're setting patterns. STARS has probably been compromised by now anyway.

Spotters will find out what's going on, they're like dickers. I've been in CAs on SPTA where one spotter has been seen in the trees, and by the time we've done a few more CAs in the general area there will be 4 or 5 taking pictures. WhatsApp/Facebook/FR24 allows instant broadcast of info, the comments that go with it are pure assumption. I've seen my own flights being tracked on groups with people saying "they're doing this or that" when we were doing nothing of the sort. It's great for virtual people watching with a brew.
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Old 21st Mar 2022, 11:25
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Originally Posted by SATCOS WHIPPING BOY View Post
Obviously I was slack in making my point clearly enough.
Wait a minute. If the publication of operational patterns such as take off times is such an egregious sin, have you not just breached OPSEC rules by bringing this spotter group to the attention of the Russians?!
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Old 21st Mar 2022, 11:43
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Originally Posted by Ewan Whosearmy View Post
Wait a minute. If the publication of operational patterns such as take off times is such an egregious sin, have you not just breached OPSEC rules by bringing this spotter group to the attention of the Russians?!
Well, according to many on here No I haven't because "it is in public domain" and Mr and Mrs Kalshnikov living at No. 16 Runway End Cottages, will know already. ;-)


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Old 21st Mar 2022, 12:08
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Originally Posted by trim it out View Post
​​​​​​Report it to the Station Execs that they're setting patterns. STARS has probably been compromised by now anyway.

Spotters will find out what's going on, they're like dickers. I've been in CAs on SPTA where one spotter has been seen in the trees, and by the time we've done a few more CAs in the general area there will be 4 or 5 taking pictures. WhatsApp/Facebook/FR24 allows instant broadcast of info, the comments that go with it are pure assumption. I've seen my own flights being tracked on groups with people saying "they're doing this or that" when we were doing nothing of the sort. It's great for virtual people watching with a brew.
There is much to be said for living in a country that allows this activity when there are many that would see you thrown into prison or worse. You make a good point that spotters take a little information and make out they know everything when in fact they know nothing of importance. On the plus side the endless FR24 screenshots have stopped.
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Old 21st Mar 2022, 12:09
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I think this constant flow of low-level info must be useful to someone though how you stop it I do not know. The MoD thinks so by allegedly banning Whatsapp as quoted here
I know it's the Daily Wail but this story seems authentic
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