Military ethos and Diversity?

[Finningley Boy]

I've just been reading about the Army's day for Diversity training on 8 February. The CGS has a remarkable background as a Soldier. It might be the way my own mentality has been shaped, I left the RAF in 1990, but do we reckon he's sincere? Or is he just trying to avoid being removed early? He's due to handover at any minute anyway, so...?

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[NutLoose]

Well if you want an example of how far things have gone, and not in my opinion for the better, watch the clip.

You Tube

[Toadstool]

Originally Posted by NutLoose

Well if you want an example of how far things have gone, and not in my opinion for the better, watch the clip.

https://youtu.be/P5ar7vYg0pY

Why is that Nutty? What, in your opinion, is wrong about making the work environment, wherever that is, a more inclusive and welcoming place to work/operate? In my experience, from right now and through the last 10-15 years, D&I policy has absolutely not affected our ability on Ops. That is unless you have a different experience in which case could you give me examples?

[alfred_the_great]

How does making sure someone feels like they comfortable at work and actually part of the team become a negative?

[Wyler]

Great video. Says it all.
Back in the 80s a very good friend of mine was thrown out of the RAF for being Gay. Her treatment was disgusting and bordering on criminal so I am DELIGHTED that we have progressed away from that. I also know 2 former colleagues who have transitioned from male to female. Both were not just transformed physically but mentally as well into happy, contented people. I am also delighted that that is now something that can be openly applauded. I am also delighted to see the male dominated culture brought somewhat to heal with way more females taking leadership and combat roles.
However, the Armed Forces are in the business of enforcing Government policy by use of extreme violence when all diplomacy has failed. As part of that we have to leave potential enemies in no doubt that we mean business and can deliver. That American Ad and 'a day for reflection' achieve the exact opposite. I believe that we have let the pendulum swing too far on this one.
I liked the Royal Marine Ad - 99.9% need not apply.

[Blue_Circle]

Originally Posted by Wyler

Great video. Says it all.
Back in the 80s a very good friend of mine was thrown out of the RAF for being Gay. Her treatment was disgusting and bordering on criminal so I am DELIGHTED that we have progressed away from that. I also know 2 former colleagues who have transitioned from male to female. Both were not just transformed physically but mentally as well into happy, contented people. I am also delighted that that is now something that can be openly applauded. I am also delighted to see the male dominated culture brought somewhat to heal with way more females taking leadership and combat roles.
However, the Armed Forces are in the business of enforcing Government policy by use of extreme violence when all diplomacy has failed. As part of that we have to leave potential enemies in no doubt that we mean business and can deliver. That American Ad and 'a day for reflection' achieve the exact opposite. I believe that we have let the pendulum swing too far on this one.
I liked the Royal Marine Ad - 99.9% need not apply.

Surely the Army can take a day for refelction and also be a mature and effective fighting force? I know a fair few serving soldiers who I think a lot of posters here would consider pretty 'woke'; they'd all kick all our asses in a firefight.

[Toadstool]

Originally Posted by Blue_Circle

Surely the Army can take a day for refelction and also be a mature and effective fighting force? I know a fair few serving soldiers who I think a lot of posters here would consider pretty 'woke'; they'd all kick all our asses in a firefight.

Exactly. It’s not binary, we can be inclusive and an effective fighting force. There are a lot of people on here who haven’t had the operational tempo that us “woke” people have and are still involved in. That’s absolutely not meant to denigrate your service, but to reflect upon the fact that things haven’t swung completely the other way. We currently do mean business and are delivering.

[NutLoose]

I have nothing against anyone serving in the forces no matter what gender, race or personal choices, but I like Wyler feel it is targeting a small portion of the population and not really showing what may be expected of people joining the Army..

I know it's probably the wrong thing to use as an analogy, but the nazi's used the idea of "model" Theresienstadt camps in adverts to convince the jewish population of the advantages of signing up, the reality was far from that.
I just feel that the US military are aiming their advertising at not their core ideal soldier, but pandering to a minority, not that there is anything wrong with those, but simply to be seen to be politically correct.

Standing by for incoming..

[Finningley Boy]

Originally Posted by Blue_Circle

Surely the Army can take a day for refelction and also be a mature and effective fighting force? I know a fair few serving soldiers who I think a lot of posters here would consider pretty 'woke'; they'd all kick all our asses in a firefight.

They won't be kicking my ass, they'll be kicking the Russian Army's ass.

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[Finningley Boy]

Originally Posted by NutLoose

I have nothing against anyone serving in the forces no matter what gender, race or personal choices, but I like Wyler feel it is targeting a small portion of the population and not really showing what may be expected of people joining the Army..

I know it's probably the wrong thing to use as an analogy, but the nazi's used the idea of "model" Theresienstadt camps in adverts to convince the jewish population of the advantages of signing up, the reality was far from that.
I just feel that the US military are aiming their advertising at not their core ideal soldier, but pandering to a minority, not that there is anything wrong with those, but simply to be seen to be politically correct.

Standing by for incoming..

I think you've put very well Nutloose, ultimately the military look for a certain mindset with certain expectations. They won't find it looking in shall we say, unlikely settings.

I understand, that in recent years, the problem the army has had with recruitment isn't necessarily recruitment, but retention.

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[Blue_Circle]

Originally Posted by NutLoose

I have nothing against anyone serving in the forces no matter what gender, race or personal choices, but I like Wyler feel it is targeting a small portion of the population and not really showing what may be expected of people joining the Army..

I know it's probably the wrong thing to use as an analogy, but the nazi's used the idea of "model" Theresienstadt camps in adverts to convince the jewish population of the advantages of signing up, the reality was far from that.
I just feel that the US military are aiming their advertising at not their core ideal soldier, but pandering to a minority, not that there is anything wrong with those, but simply to be seen to be politically correct.

Standing by for incoming..

What makes you think that inclusive and egalitarian people are a 'minority'?

[NutLoose]

Minority may have been the wrong word I was trying to come up with.

How can I put this, you do not target your recruiting advertising for minuteman silo staff at CND members.. You target the qualities that would be required to launch a strike knowing everything you ever knew was about to end.

Similarly the Army needs a certain type of mindset as mentioned, the ability to live in some pretty appalling conditions sometimes and getting down to basics...kill.
Now I am not saying these people the advert is angled at do not have those qualities, but I bet a lot do not. The advert shows the character on a parade with banners such as respect each other and love each other.... which is not exactly aimed at people expected to kill is it?


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[Saintsman]

Originally Posted by NutLoose

Minority may have been the wrong word I was trying to come up with.

How can I put this, you do not target your recruiting advertising for minuteman silo staff at CND members.. You target the qualities that would be required to launch a strike knowing everything you ever knew was about to end.

Similarly the Army needs a certain type of mindset as mentioned, the ability to live in some pretty appalling conditions sometimes and getting down to basics...kill.
Now I am not saying these people the advert is angled at do not have those qualities, but I bet a lot do not. The advert shows the character on a parade with banners such as respect each other and love each other.... which is not exactly aimed at people expected to kill is it?


..

Not just kill, but prepared to be killed in doing so.

War is a nasty, evil business and the whole point of fighting is to win. Something that a lot of woke (and not so woke) people forget.

Ultimately (and maybe an extreme example), would it matter how inclusive you felt when you have been told to go over the wall and attack your enemy knowing that you might not survive the day?

[pasta]

Originally Posted by NutLoose

Similarly the Army needs a certain type of mindset as mentioned, the ability to live in some pretty appalling conditions sometimes and getting down to basics...kill.
Now I am not saying these people the advert is angled at do not have those qualities, but I bet a lot do not. The advert shows the character on a parade with banners such as respect each other and love each other.... which is not exactly aimed at people expected to kill is it?

Help me out here, is it people who stand up for equality that are less likely to have the right qualities to be in the Army? Or gay people? Or women? Is it respect that a soldier shouldn't have, or love?

[Toadstool]

Originally Posted by pasta

Help me out here, is it people who stand up for equality that are less likely to have the right qualities to be in the Army? Or gay people? Or women? Is it respect that a soldier shouldn't have, or love?

CGS, who stands for equality, used to serve in and commanded 22 SAS. I’m pretty sure that when the time came he was more than prepared to kill or be killed.
Let’s face it, there are many who just don’t or can’t understand what it means and equate equality “ wokeness” with weakness.

[RAFEngO74to09]

British Army training day on "culture and inclusion"

https://www.forces.net/news/op-teamw...-amongst-force

[NutLoose]

Originally Posted by pasta

Help me out here, is it people who stand up for equality that are less likely to have the right qualities to be in the Army? Or gay people? Or women? Is it respect that a soldier shouldn't have, or love?

I didn’t say that, I was trying to get across that the demographic they appear to be targeting is not what one would normally associate with recruitment for the army.

[pasta]

Originally Posted by NutLoose

I didn’t say that, I was trying to get across that the demographic they appear to be targeting is not what one would normally associate with recruitment for the army.

I think that's the point. If you accept that factors like gender, sexuality, social conscience etc have no bearing on whether someone's going to be a good soldier (or whatever you're recruiting for) it makes sense to slant your recruitment effort towards the groups that are under-represented. People who fit the stereotype are finding you anyway, so it's worth putting more effort into attracting the people that don't.

Diverse recruitment doesn't have to be woke, it can be self-serving. You want the best people you can get; if people from certain demographics aren't applying, you're probably missing out on some top candidates.

[beardy]

the Army needs a certain type of mindset as mentioned, the ability to live in some pretty appalling conditions sometimes and getting down to basics...kill.
Now I am not saying these people the advert is angled at do not have those qualities, but I bet a lot do not.

I would hope that those who do not have those qualities would neither apply nor be selected. I'm not sure on what basis you doubt that the target audience don't have those qualities.
You have to trust your those with whom you serve, that trust should be blind to qualities that have no impact on effectiveness. Gender and sexuality should not and need not be an impediment.

[NutLoose]

Originally Posted by beardy

I would hope that those who do not have those qualities would neither apply nor be selected. I'm not sure on what basis you doubt that the target audience don't have those qualities.

But do you not think the advert the way it is portrayed may well attract those who do not have those qualities you require to apply?