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Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

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Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Old 10th Feb 2022, 14:36
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
We still have the issue of one, possibly two, Harriers stooging around the highlands late on a Saturday afternoon in August with no audit trail for where they might have come from. What evidence is there beyond the declaration of the anonymous photographer, that the picture was take at the date and time in question? For example, does the weather in the picture tally with the weather at the time? Is the light angle right for the time of day? The pictures I have seen have two very different backgrounds, has the site of either been physically identified?
Hello. The senior ex-mil source insists that 1 Harrier was UK, 1 was US, the diamond was real, and the US harrier was there because of the diamond in case it went down. He could, of course, be leading us down the garden path, but one has to trust somebody in all this. The only "real" photo anyone has is the terrible quality photocopy from TNA, and little to nothing can be read from it about the weather/location. All the rest out there are mock-ups, but all the people we've spoken to who saw the actual photos in the 1990s agree that the mock-ups pretty much match what they themselves were shown back then. We think we might know the real location where the photo was taken (TBC).

Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
The idea of Harriers themselves is interesting - why that type? As has been suggested, it not the best type for a chase aircraft and certainly not a QRA type. Moreover, there is no evidence to suggest they were just passing. Nothing seems to stack up and that diamond does not look like it belongs in the picture.
Nothing has ever been said as to "Why were they Harriers?" I speculate, but it is only that, that the Harriers' ability to hover/land might have been potentially required in the event something went wrong with the diamond. Or they just might have been what was to hand on that Saturday at whichever base/installation they came from.

Reasonably, what even accounts for the diamond (assuming it was real and worked as suggested) even flying near Calvine and hovering there, except for some kind of adverse issue? The diamond, perhaps, had an issue, and the Harriers were then despatched to escort it. They flew past, doubled back, found it, had reasonable endurance to stay on site while whatever was wrong with it was overcome or "worked around", and then when that was completed, they left and the diamond went on its way. Is there any other likely reason?

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Old 10th Feb 2022, 16:21
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I will leave a Harrier pilot to comment on your land/hover theory but I think it unlikely. You have also compounded the issue by throwing a USMC Harrier into the mix. Where would that have come from? Why would they want to land or hover - what could two Harrier pilots do? As to the idea it was what was to hand - an RAF Harrier and a US Harrier? Does that sound plausible? Where were Harriers from 2 nations operating together in 1990? Solve that and you may get closer to an answer.

The other issue you need to address is why a late August Saturday afternoon? Trials are normally conducted weekdays unless it wasn't "one of ours". If it wasn't ours, surely it would be a QRA job, not a Harrier, especially as there is no evidence that any Harriers were airborne anywhere in the UK that day.

If you cannot account for the only two credible objects, the story starts to fall apart.
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Old 10th Feb 2022, 16:41
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A Harrier would have to be at a low fuel weight to be able to hover - and then still have to recover to whatever base it was flying from. Vertical landing on anything other than a prepared (concrete or PSA planking) surface would result in a trip home on a Queen Mary with a knackered donk.

Neither idea is a starter.

Mog
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Old 10th Feb 2022, 17:00
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On the one hand, much of this event is implausible in the extreme. On the other hand, I have on my desk a copy of 'Greenglow' by Ronald Evans that I sometimes pick up for a read wondering whether its an elaborate joke or if there's something in it.
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Old 10th Feb 2022, 17:04
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A fascinating Thread that surely deserves the Nessie Award for 2022?

As a complete outsider, it seems riddled in holes and conspiracy theories.

However, I shall continue to read in a state of suspended reality.
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Old 10th Feb 2022, 18:30
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
I will leave a Harrier pilot to comment on your land/hover theory but I think it unlikely. You have also compounded the issue by throwing a USMC Harrier into the mix. Where would that have come from? Why would they want to land or hover - what could two Harrier pilots do? As to the idea it was what was to hand - an RAF Harrier and a US Harrier? Does that sound plausible? Where were Harriers from 2 nations operating together in 1990? Solve that and you may get closer to an answer.
Hello.

Believe you me, I would be the first to admit there are many holes in all this, and what's left is itself contradictory! With the physical evidence destroyed or missing, we're really seeking personal testimonies from involved parties.

I have admittedly never flown anything, so I am more than happy to accept Mogwi's point re: Harriers not being able to land on anything other than a man-made surface. Thanks for that.

In fairness, I am only repeating, to the extent I'm able, what we've been told by a very senior former military source who volunteered the information to us unprompted. Admittedly, he could be deliberately misleading us. He could even be unintentionally misleading us (telling us what he thinks is true but he has himself been misled). Once one starts to go down that route, though, one seems to lose sense of what's up and what's down, so when people who we don't yet have reason to doubt tell us something, we have tried to treat them as if they were straight shooters.

Where were Harriers from 2 nations operating together in 1990? [I would be extremely grateful for an answer to this question if anyone knows. Or even if anyone knows where just US Harriers were in Scotland in 1990, other than Machrihanish.

Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
The other issue you need to address is why a late August Saturday afternoon? Trials are normally conducted weekdays unless it wasn't "one of ours". If it wasn't ours, surely it would be a QRA job, not a Harrier, especially as there is no evidence that any Harriers were airborne anywhere in the UK that day.
I'm not trying to split hairs, but according to the file, it was closer to 9pm. Again, though, we don't (yet) know. We don't know if it was a trial per se or whether it was some kind of semi-abort during a pre-Gulf War mission. If it was American, as suggested to us, we assume it would have been a fully functional craft on its way to a target or destination. A source has indicated that the diamond was on its way to the Gulf, but that's yet another as yet uncorroborated (if potentially logical) piece of the puzzle.

We also understood QRA to be a matter of pilots being on duty at immediate readiness for foreign incursions, such as when the Russians muck about off the top of Scotland. I would be happy to stand corrected on this, but if a US craft suddenly needed assistance and sought to enter UK airspace, (a) how difficult would it be and/or (b) how quickly could it be done, for those in the know to call up RAF ATC and say, "If you see a blip or 3 near Calvine, just ignore them, OK? Don't launch QRA."

Fleetingly, we toyed with the idea of the AV-8B having been from a ship such as an amphibious assault ship, but we couldn't locate a suitable candidate in Atlantic waters in August 1990. [Again, we're happy to be told otherwise.] There was a NATO training exercise in the North Sea and Norway in September 1990 (TEAMWORK 90), so we had wondered if the plane had been on a ship that had come over early, but so far we don't have any evidence for that theory.

Thanks
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Old 10th Feb 2022, 18:55
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The occupation of Kuwait did not begin until 2 Aug 90. Is it remotely plausible that an extremely classified US asset would risk exposure just 2 days later? The West had have plenty of ways of gathering intelligence via the usual methods. The Gulf War had not even been thought of.

Exercise TEAMWORK 90 did not take place until 6-23 September 1990. The only carrier involvement I can find is HMS Ark Royal. A USN carrier would not pitch up in early August for something not starting for another month. The landing forces were marines from the UK and the Netherlands, no mention of USMC that I can find.

Last edited by Ninthace; 10th Feb 2022 at 19:30.
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Old 10th Feb 2022, 19:18
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I don’t really understand how the senior military source gets one RAF and one USMC Harrier from the photo. As I said earlier,my initial impression was of a Hunter, and no sign of a second aircraft. If JARIC, or whoever could identify the nationalities of the aircraft they must have seen a MUCH better picture than I did. OR they have another source of information.
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Old 10th Feb 2022, 19:35
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How about a development of the MBB Lampyridae? That was in development in the 1980s. Looks spookily like the craft described:



Here is a YouTube video about it:

Also, some more details here: http://www.rp-one.net/lampyridae/lampy.html
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Old 10th Feb 2022, 19:38
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It can't hover and only a 12m long piloted model was produced and would not have been flying over Scotland at the weekend.
A better contender (it we ignore the ability to hover and no sound aspect) would be an F-117
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Old 10th Feb 2022, 20:16
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Originally Posted by Timelord View Post
I don’t really understand how the senior military source gets one RAF and one USMC Harrier from the photo. As I said earlier,my initial impression was of a Hunter, and no sign of a second aircraft. If JARIC, or whoever could identify the nationalities of the aircraft they must have seen a MUCH better picture than I did. OR they have another source of information.
According to the senior source's version of events, the source got the RAF and USMC information from the 6 prints originally taken by MoD from the negatives and, later, from the Americans themselves.

We have 5 separate witnesses who claim to have seen the photos in the 1990s, and none of them say the diamond was the F-117.
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Old 10th Feb 2022, 20:33
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The “Senior source” quote worries me a bit. What does the OP regard as as such? Wing Commander, Air rank?

I appreciate the higher up the chain the greater risk of identifying an individual, but in some circles a wg cdr was seen as “senior”.
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Old 10th Feb 2022, 20:54
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Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
The “Senior source” quote worries me a bit. What does the OP regard as as such? Wing Commander, Air rank?

I appreciate the higher up the chain the greater risk of identifying an individual, but in some circles a wg cdr was seen as “senior”.
Technically anything from Sqn Ldr and above but competence is far more important than seniority.
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Old 10th Feb 2022, 22:32
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From post 86:
"(b) how quickly could it be done, for those in the know to call up RAF ATC and say, "If you see a blip or 3 near Calvine, just ignore them, OK? Don't launch QRA."
Theoretically, very easy to achieve. QRA required the duty officer to authorize launch. If that officer was prebriefed on planned unusual flying activity, they would be able to tie reports of something unusual that would ordinarily require investigation with the prebriefed activity, and hold any launch. Of course, the surveillance officers that had reported the unusual activity would have to be told that said activity was nothing to worry about.. Always a give away that something classified was happening. My personal favourite explanation from the duty controller was that the Mach 2 track at 40k was a harrier on an engine test. Funnily enough, same part of the world and similar timeframe to this incident.
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Old 11th Feb 2022, 09:27
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet View Post
233 OCU started flying the Harrier GR5 at Wittering in 1988. 1(F) Sqn shortly after in 1989. The Strike Attack OEU IN 1987 from RAF Boscombe Down. Pretty likely that Harrier GR5 was flying in and around West Freugh as they were struggling with the GR5’s weapon systems and hard points around this time. It was the main reason why it didn’t go to Op GRANBY for 1990/91.

Of course, West Freugh has its very own UFO incident from 1957: https://ekladata.com/6OxHJh2L0whv-4I...westfreugh.pdf
Hello. If anyone is interested in looking into this for themselves, and they live near or visit Kew, I believe TNA have some undigitised files on it: https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C1225338

This link is for the page below (but larger), and it is from the above TNA file, I believe: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_RDphvX...jpg&name=large


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Old 11th Feb 2022, 09:31
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Originally Posted by Milarity View Post
From post 86:
"(b) how quickly could it be done, for those in the know to call up RAF ATC and say, "If you see a blip or 3 near Calvine, just ignore them, OK? Don't launch QRA."
Theoretically, very easy to achieve. QRA required the duty officer to authorize launch. If that officer was prebriefed on planned unusual flying activity, they would be able to tie reports of something unusual that would ordinarily require investigation with the prebriefed activity, and hold any launch. Of course, the surveillance officers that had reported the unusual activity would have to be told that said activity was nothing to worry about.. Always a give away that something classified was happening. My personal favourite explanation from the duty controller was that the Mach 2 track at 40k was a harrier on an engine test. Funnily enough, same part of the world and similar timeframe to this incident.
Thanks very much for this.

Originally Posted by Milarity View Post
My personal favourite explanation from the duty controller was that the Mach 2 track at 40k was a harrier on an engine test. Funnily enough, same part of the world and similar timeframe to this incident.
Was this something you were personally involved in? If you have specifics on this incident, would you let me have them either by PPRuNe message or email, please? Thank you.
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Old 11th Feb 2022, 09:45
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My personal favourite explanation from the duty controller was that the Mach 2 track at 40k was a harrier on an engine test.
Sharky says its true and will fight anyone who says otherwise!
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Old 11th Feb 2022, 10:50
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
Technically anything from Sqn Ldr and above but competence is far more important than seniority.
Re: MPN11 and Ninthace. Being careful of my wording, we have several sources who were, they claim, directly involved in this matter (and from what they've said which tallies with what others have said, we believe they were involved). Of the 2 main ones, one is older, was more involved, and of a higher rank than the other, hence "senior". Neither wishes to be publicly identified, though.
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Old 11th Feb 2022, 11:15
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Originally Posted by Matthew Illsley View Post
Was this something you were personally involved in? If you have specifics on this incident, would you let me have them either by PPRuNe message or email, please? Thank you.
I have no knowledge of this specific event, but in case of explaining a mach 2 target at 40k with a Harrier I'd google SR-71. Though it would be a bit slow and a tad low for the Blackbird
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Old 11th Feb 2022, 11:16
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Originally Posted by Matthew Illsley View Post
Re: MPN11 and Ninthace. Being careful of my wording, we have several sources who were, they claim, directly involved in this matter (and from what they've said which tallies with what others have said, we believe they were involved). Of the 2 main ones, one is older, was more involved, and of a higher rank than the other, hence "senior". Neither wishes to be publicly identified, though.
Thank you. I fully understand the need for PERSEC, and will of course press this no further.
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