Russia - Military Strength vs Expenditure. How do they do it?
At the time of Desert Shield - wasn't the Iraqi Military listed as the worlds 4th largest army in qty of units...?
And most of that was Russian made ?
So brings to mind the quality of the goods or lack of training (I suspect the latter), that Stormin Norman took Iraq in 100days.
And most of that was Russian made ?
So brings to mind the quality of the goods or lack of training (I suspect the latter), that Stormin Norman took Iraq in 100days.
He also had a significant advantage in space based "eyes in the sky" -- combined arms warfare being what it is, I'd not attribute that success to equipment differences or numbers.
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Reading a book called Lions Dinosaurs and Donkeys - Waste and Blundering in the Military by Lewis Page would be instructive on this..... especially with regard to the Apache
Lewis Page
Bearing in mind the author, could we assume that the aforementioned book highlights how great the RN is and how bad all the other services are? Does it also conclude by saying that the RAF should be subsumed into the FAA?
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I think Ukraine may be a way tougher nut for Russia to crack now, esp with their growing capability with Turkish-built drones, which proved themselves so effective in Nagorno-Karabakh (armour, trucks, artillery, sheesh the operators even got so bored they started picking off individual troops in foxholes). Just have a fleet of these patrolling up and down the border, ready to plink anything which crosses the line.
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A really good thread with many useful answers !
one poInt is like already mentioned that russia spents a bigger percentage of its military budget to actual weapon systems than nato countries do . In the western world much is used for salaries , pensions , social programs etc . The costs for keeping nato standarts of the infrastructure like air bases , naval bases etc is also not comparable to russian air or naval bases.
when it comes to actual weapon systems they 'fool' us a bit with sheer numbers but it does not say much about the combat capabilities . Old and rusty tanks or planes in storage look on the paper impressive but do not say much about true combat strenght.
Even never systems appear to shine only on the paper . Lets take the fancy s-400 air defense system . In theory superior to patriot , in practise in syria or armenia turkish drones and missiles were able to perform their mission nevertheless .
Russia never showed off military strenght big scale since ww2 , in fact they even struggled to force out few thousand rebels out of aleppo in syria , the same in chehen war .
I,m not saying its nothing what they have because it would be naive to assume it - but lets not overerstimate it .
When there was a comparision to the uk - I guess russia from a military point of view would just stall in a try for an all out invasion of the uk and trying to rise the russian flag on buckingham palace . ( assuming only russia vs uk )
one poInt is like already mentioned that russia spents a bigger percentage of its military budget to actual weapon systems than nato countries do . In the western world much is used for salaries , pensions , social programs etc . The costs for keeping nato standarts of the infrastructure like air bases , naval bases etc is also not comparable to russian air or naval bases.
when it comes to actual weapon systems they 'fool' us a bit with sheer numbers but it does not say much about the combat capabilities . Old and rusty tanks or planes in storage look on the paper impressive but do not say much about true combat strenght.
Even never systems appear to shine only on the paper . Lets take the fancy s-400 air defense system . In theory superior to patriot , in practise in syria or armenia turkish drones and missiles were able to perform their mission nevertheless .
Russia never showed off military strenght big scale since ww2 , in fact they even struggled to force out few thousand rebels out of aleppo in syria , the same in chehen war .
I,m not saying its nothing what they have because it would be naive to assume it - but lets not overerstimate it .
When there was a comparision to the uk - I guess russia from a military point of view would just stall in a try for an all out invasion of the uk and trying to rise the russian flag on buckingham palace . ( assuming only russia vs uk )
Nope, not in this case. Iirc some stuff was (fuel couplings), but their ammo is totally different. 7.62x39mm (AK ammo) is a different length to NATO ammo (7.62x51mm) and is fundamentally incompatible. The AK was conceived much more as a sub-machine gun rather than the "battle rifle" typically associated with 7.62 NATO (FAL etc)
NATO ammo is (for m80) a 10g bullet doing 850m/s ish while Soviet is an 8g bullet doing 715m/s ish, to give a rough comparison in "oompf"
NATO ammo is (for m80) a 10g bullet doing 850m/s ish while Soviet is an 8g bullet doing 715m/s ish, to give a rough comparison in "oompf"
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The costs for keeping NATO standards of the infrastructure like air bases , naval bases etc is also not comparable to Russian air or naval bases.
Western prisoners live at a higher standard than their conscripts do.
"They might be better employed taking out rail, tunnels and bridges to hamper the resupply routes?"
Absolutely Nut - especially as I understand that one of the timing constraints on Putin is when does the landscape turn to mud - there aren't enough roads etc to deploy all that kit when that happens - right now the ground is frozen solid and that is a critical metric for the time window
Absolutely Nut - especially as I understand that one of the timing constraints on Putin is when does the landscape turn to mud - there aren't enough roads etc to deploy all that kit when that happens - right now the ground is frozen solid and that is a critical metric for the time window
Absolutely Nut - especially as I understand that one of the timing constraints on Putin is when does the landscape turn to mud - there aren't enough roads etc to deploy all that kit when that happens - right now the ground is frozen solid and that is a critical metric for the time window
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Rail, as with hard roads and bridges will still be operational regardless of the ground turning to mud, your supply line will then be funnelled through those.
All this talk of 'waiting for the ground to freeze so Putin can use his tanks'. It's 2022 not 1942 - Ukraine is a modern European country with modern European roads, and it doesn't really matter how muddy or not the fields are.
It's not 1942 of course but having a convoy of tanks reluctant of leaving a paved road is like shooting fish on a barrell for the counterpart (air and ground forces). If the situation is that there is no opposition, better to move them on trains and trucks. It'll be a lot faster too.
however, as it is no 1942 there is much more than just tanks to worry about.
however, as it is no 1942 there is much more than just tanks to worry about.
Is Ukraine's soil different from that of Belarus or the areas of Russia that border it? Does Ukraine's Army not drive tanks on its own fields for the 11 months of the year they're not completely frozen over?
For sure it will get a little muddy, but not to the extent that it might paralyse any movement as it did in 1941/1942, when the main roads that are today all paved were all dirt.
For sure it will get a little muddy, but not to the extent that it might paralyse any movement as it did in 1941/1942, when the main roads that are today all paved were all dirt.
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So was the road out of Kuwait where they all congregated together and how did that work out for them?
I don't think that the Ukrainian soil and whether it is frozen or not has much impact on strategic planning. There is no massive mbt battle in sight but tanks breaking weak spots in defences and mechanized infantry coming in in BMP's and BTR's taking advantage of the opportunity to isolate enemy formations. They also protect the MBT's from enemy infantry with NLAW's and such. Take out the BTR's, the MBT's lose cover and turn very vulnerable for ambush. Or just use the artillery to take the MBT's out from a distance.
It is no surprise that the ukrainians have requested and delivered with Javelins, NLAWs, big bore artillery shells and such. The estonians offered artillery as well but since those originated in DDR the germans hate the idea (and offer helmets instead...).
So its not just the MBT's, its about everything else that comes with them that needs to be stopped. And most of the other stuff is very tolerant to bad terrain, especially everything that flies. And eventually the soft soil season is very short so it doesn't make much difference, in the summer it's yet again good to go, even with 1942 standards.
In any case it would take enormous brass balls to line them as a convoy and go solely by the roads. It would be a turkey shoot for the defenders. The soviets tried that in 1939 and didn't work out even then. They were slaughtered in divisions.
It is no surprise that the ukrainians have requested and delivered with Javelins, NLAWs, big bore artillery shells and such. The estonians offered artillery as well but since those originated in DDR the germans hate the idea (and offer helmets instead...).
So its not just the MBT's, its about everything else that comes with them that needs to be stopped. And most of the other stuff is very tolerant to bad terrain, especially everything that flies. And eventually the soft soil season is very short so it doesn't make much difference, in the summer it's yet again good to go, even with 1942 standards.
In any case it would take enormous brass balls to line them as a convoy and go solely by the roads. It would be a turkey shoot for the defenders. The soviets tried that in 1939 and didn't work out even then. They were slaughtered in divisions.
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