UK air-to-air gunnery exercises in 70s/80s
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 99
UK air-to-air gunnery exercises in 70s/80s
Back in the 1970s and 1980s most air-to-air gunnery practice by Lightnings and Phantoms took place over the Med, but occasional live firing exercises against banner targets seem to have also taken place over UK sea ranges. Druridge Bay is mentioned as being one such range, another appears to have been off the Cornish coast (Start Point?) and another over the North Sea off Leuchars. Can anyone confirm where these ranges were and describe how the exercises were flown ?
Thanks, RS.
Thanks, RS.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 12,643
Also flown off the coast north of Flamborough Head.
NOTAM put out for the area and Canberra towing the banner established on its pattern. One of the fighters performed a surface sweep to ensure no vessels in the area and when the area area confirmed clear it proceeded as normal.
Didn’t stop VFR traffic regularly penetrating the area and having to call stop on a frequent basis - but I can’t remember an APC not achieving its NATO qualification requirement - though that was hushed up as much as possible….
NOTAM put out for the area and Canberra towing the banner established on its pattern. One of the fighters performed a surface sweep to ensure no vessels in the area and when the area area confirmed clear it proceeded as normal.
Didn’t stop VFR traffic regularly penetrating the area and having to call stop on a frequent basis - but I can’t remember an APC not achieving its NATO qualification requirement - though that was hushed up as much as possible….
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,322
In Nov 81 we (F-4) did our annual gunnery APC out of St Mawgan…can’t remember exactly where relative to the airfield we did actual shooting but it would not have been a long transit and was performed in the manner ORAC described.
I see from the logbook during that APC I did one sortie as a dedicated “sweep”, presumably for range safety but can’t remember the details.
The was also of course the Air-to Air gunnery done by the tactical weapons units….In my case, Brawdy, in 1980, gunnery usually done out over the Bristol Channel.
I see from the logbook during that APC I did one sortie as a dedicated “sweep”, presumably for range safety but can’t remember the details.
The was also of course the Air-to Air gunnery done by the tactical weapons units….In my case, Brawdy, in 1980, gunnery usually done out over the Bristol Channel.
Last edited by wiggy; 31st Dec 2021 at 08:05.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,322
Originally Posted by redsetter
Thanks ORAC and wiggy. Presumably the shot-up banners were returned to the participating squadrons for assessment ?
It was then recovered and taken to the squadron for inspection by the weapons instructors and all others with an interest.
As I recall it each aircraft in the shoot would be firing rounds that were coated with a different colored dye/paint so multiple aircraft take turns firing on one banner and then the individual scores were established by counting the different coloured holes…..
Join Date: May 2010
Location: PLanet Earth
Posts: 1,064
Originally Posted by wiggy
In Nov 81 we (F-4) did our annual gunnery APC out of St Mawgan…can’t remember exactly where relative to the airfield we did actual shooting but it would not have been a long transit and was performed in the manner ORAC described.
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 129
Originally Posted by wiggy
As I recall it each aircraft in the shoot would be firing rounds that were coated with a different colored dye/paint so multiple aircraft take turns firing on one banner and then the individual scores were established by counting the different coloured holes…..
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Peterborough
Age: 68
Posts: 226
Part of the TWCU course at Brawdy involved Clear Range Firing where the flag and shooters departed to the west (St. George’s Channel area), checked the oggin for shipping, then blasted at the flag.
The DZ for dropping the flag was between runway 33 and the western taxiway.
The DZ for dropping the flag was between runway 33 and the western taxiway.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,128
In the Summer of '76, after 58 Sqn folded at RAF Wittering, I was posted to hold with Standards Sqn at RAF Brawdy. Amongst whom was the late 'Puddy' Catt, whose flying frequently included towing the flag behind Winston or Clementine, our 2 Meteors.
One afternoon Puddy came in looking even more red faced than normal. It seems that the range sortie had been DNCO'd due to a ship in Hartland Range. Much vexed at this, Puddy had gone down to check out said ship, at rather low level..."Blasted Navy - but I've got the bugger's number" he told us.
I went to the hut next door, which housed the Education Section and woke up the Stn Ed Off, who was having a quiet afternoon snooze after his OM lunch, to ask whether he had a copy of Jane's which included RN ships. He had, so I checked it out, then went back to find Puddy....
"That ship you buzzed", I told him, "...I've found out what it was and also the name of the Captain!"
"Really, that's clever of you, who was it?" he asked.
"Well, it was HMS Bronnington and the Captain is HRH The Prince of Wales".
One afternoon Puddy came in looking even more red faced than normal. It seems that the range sortie had been DNCO'd due to a ship in Hartland Range. Much vexed at this, Puddy had gone down to check out said ship, at rather low level..."Blasted Navy - but I've got the bugger's number" he told us.
I went to the hut next door, which housed the Education Section and woke up the Stn Ed Off, who was having a quiet afternoon snooze after his OM lunch, to ask whether he had a copy of Jane's which included RN ships. He had, so I checked it out, then went back to find Puddy....
"That ship you buzzed", I told him, "...I've found out what it was and also the name of the Captain!"
"Really, that's clever of you, who was it?" he asked.
"Well, it was HMS Bronnington and the Captain is HRH The Prince of Wales".
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,322
Originally Posted by henra
How accurate was the Gunpod on the F-4?. I seem to remember that the Americans where rather not so happy with the accuracy of their pods. Did it restrict g-limits? In other words: Was it more considered a benefit or a hindrance for A2A by the 'users'?
As for accuracy…one for the ex-weapons instructors to answer…, personally I felt that given when wound up (which fortunately it generally was not when firing air to air) the gun was chucking out 100 rounds per second I guess an argument could have been made for the grouping to be less tight.
We had a phase (post Falklands) of doing air to ground with the gun and that was lots of fun.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,322
Originally Posted by superplum
Yes, and a particularly messy job for the armourers who had to apply the paint".
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,128
How accurate was the Gunpod on the F-4?
But in 1982, if a duffer like me could score 50.1% on air-to-air at Akrotiri and 52% on air-to-ground strafe in the UK, it wasn't too bad at all. No clever hot line sights or the like back then, just the LCOSS aided and abetted by radar range calls from the navigator.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: PLanet Earth
Posts: 1,064
Originally Posted by wiggy
To some degree whether it was a benefit or not depended on the Rules of Engagement which of course (?) takes us back to the whole messy story of an internal gun having to be fitted to later variants.
As for accuracy…one for the ex-weapons instructors to answer…, personally I felt that given when wound up (which fortunately it generally was not when firing air to air) the gun was chucking out 100 rounds per second I guess an argument could have been made for the grouping to be less tight.
I guess that is due to the fact that with fast Fighter Jets you wouldn't want to be close enough to count the rivets of the target aircraft when opening up on them. In WW2 I understand typical engagement distances were rather short, something like 200 - 300 Yards and below.
At what ranges would you typically have engaged the target with the gun?
We had a phase (post Falklands) of doing air to ground with the gun and that was lots of fun.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: PLanet Earth
Posts: 1,064
Originally Posted by BEagle
Depended a lot on how well it had been set up and harmonised.
But in 1982, if a duffer like me could score 50.1% on air-to-air at Akrotiri and 52% on air-to-ground strafe in the UK, it wasn't too bad at all. No clever hot line sights or the like back then, just the LCOSS aided and abetted by radar range calls from the navigator.
But in 1982, if a duffer like me could score 50.1% on air-to-air at Akrotiri and 52% on air-to-ground strafe in the UK, it wasn't too bad at all. No clever hot line sights or the like back then, just the LCOSS aided and abetted by radar range calls from the navigator.
