UK air-to-air gunnery exercises in 70s/80s
Yep end of the shoot the tow aircraft would do a lowish fly past and drop the banner on the airfield.
It was then recovered and taken to the squadron for inspection by the weapons instructors and all others with an interest.
As I recall it each aircraft in the shoot would be firing rounds that were coated with a different colored dye/paint so multiple aircraft take turns firing on one banner and then the individual scores were established by counting the different coloured holes…..
It was then recovered and taken to the squadron for inspection by the weapons instructors and all others with an interest.
As I recall it each aircraft in the shoot would be firing rounds that were coated with a different colored dye/paint so multiple aircraft take turns firing on one banner and then the individual scores were established by counting the different coloured holes…..
Also, the derision a crew would receive when they shot the banner off by hitting the tow line and it landed in the sea - especially when others claimed it was the best shoot they ever had !
You can see a banner being returned and inspected here
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Llanbedr
In 1966 i did 4 months in ATC at Llanbedr. North Wales, In addition to providing Jindivik pilotless target aircraft to the off shore range for the RAF. The range was also used by Canberras from Tarrant Rushton with towed targets, often on a 45,000 foot tow with a flare and lights equipped target for missile shooting. We also had some pilotless Meteor 7’s which were not shot down, but the Jindiviks were expendable. The target aircraft were ‘flown’ by Qualified RAF pilots sitting alongside the civil Contollers who also did the talkdown to landings using PAR equipment.
Wiggy, 're post #3, if I remember rightly, you needed a dedicated sweep VMC below if aircraft were going live above as the tug crew couldnt clear the range visually. But it is a while ago now....
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In the Summer of '76, after 58 Sqn folded at RAF Wittering, I was posted to hold with Standards Sqn at RAF Brawdy. Amongst whom was the late 'Puddy' Catt, whose flying frequently included towing the flag behind Winston or Clementine, our 2 Meteors.
One afternoon Puddy came in looking even more red faced than normal. It seems that the range sortie had been DNCO'd due to a ship in Hartland Range. Much vexed at this, Puddy had gone down to check out said ship, at rather low level..."Blasted Navy - but I've got the bugger's number" he told us.
I went to the hut next door, which housed the Education Section and woke up the Stn Ed Off, who was having a quiet afternoon snooze after his OM lunch, to ask whether he had a copy of Jane's which included RN ships. He had, so I checked it out, then went back to find Puddy....
"That ship you buzzed", I told him, "...I've found out what it was and also the name of the Captain!"
"Really, that's clever of you, who was it?" he asked.
"Well, it was HMS Bronnington and the Captain is HRH The Prince of Wales".
One afternoon Puddy came in looking even more red faced than normal. It seems that the range sortie had been DNCO'd due to a ship in Hartland Range. Much vexed at this, Puddy had gone down to check out said ship, at rather low level..."Blasted Navy - but I've got the bugger's number" he told us.
I went to the hut next door, which housed the Education Section and woke up the Stn Ed Off, who was having a quiet afternoon snooze after his OM lunch, to ask whether he had a copy of Jane's which included RN ships. He had, so I checked it out, then went back to find Puddy....
"That ship you buzzed", I told him, "...I've found out what it was and also the name of the Captain!"
"Really, that's clever of you, who was it?" he asked.
"Well, it was HMS Bronnington and the Captain is HRH The Prince of Wales".
In 1966 i did 4 months in ATC at Llanbedr. North Wales, In addition to providing Jindivik pilotless target aircraft to the off shore range for the RAF. The range was also used by Canberras from Tarrant Rushton with towed targets, often on a 45,000 foot tow with a flare and lights equipped target for missile shooting. We also had some pilotless Meteor 7’s which were not shot down, but the Jindiviks were expendable. The target aircraft were ‘flown’ by Qualified RAF pilots sitting alongside the civil Contollers who also did the talkdown to landings using PAR equipment.
Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 1st Jan 2022 at 01:01.
"How accurate was the Gunpod on the F-4?"
I was an Technician on VASS at Brawdy servicing the Meteors & JPs in the mid - late 70's as well as setting up the targets, I also had the great pleasure to fly in Lady Clementine with Puddy & others towing target off the Cornish coast. Sadly I never got a Hunter ride as it went u/s while taxiing out on my next to last day at Brawdy.
Regarding the F4's gun, well all I can remember is that we ran a set of targets for them at Brawdy and only a few, bar one, returned with any damage, the exception were those shot to pieces by a certain F/L George Lee who was unknown to me at the time but of course then went onto win several major gliding championships (I later helped modify one of his gliders for the World's in Australia that he convincingly won) and almost bought his ex ASW-17.
I was truly privelidged to fly & work with Puddy, dropping the used flag at low level then accelerating around to drop a blue note over the airfield was awesome and utterly unforgettable. RIP Sir!
I was an Technician on VASS at Brawdy servicing the Meteors & JPs in the mid - late 70's as well as setting up the targets, I also had the great pleasure to fly in Lady Clementine with Puddy & others towing target off the Cornish coast. Sadly I never got a Hunter ride as it went u/s while taxiing out on my next to last day at Brawdy.
Regarding the F4's gun, well all I can remember is that we ran a set of targets for them at Brawdy and only a few, bar one, returned with any damage, the exception were those shot to pieces by a certain F/L George Lee who was unknown to me at the time but of course then went onto win several major gliding championships (I later helped modify one of his gliders for the World's in Australia that he convincingly won) and almost bought his ex ASW-17.
I was truly privelidged to fly & work with Puddy, dropping the used flag at low level then accelerating around to drop a blue note over the airfield was awesome and utterly unforgettable. RIP Sir!
Funnily enough for the purposes of this thread I’ve been trying to track down the story of George Lee scoring almost 100% on one banner…mostly I’m sure down to his skills but as I recall there was also something about the way the score was calculated from hits vs rounds expended that came into it…
I’m sure the story made it into print, perhaps in “Air Clues” years back, but it doesn’t seem to have transitioned onto the internet..least not as far as I can see using my limited googling skills
I was truly privelidged to fly & work with Puddy, dropping the used flag at low level then accelerating around to drop a blue note over the airfield was awesome and utterly unforgettable. RIP Sir!
Watching Pud drop the flag, then depart downwind to initials and come roaring over Brawdy in a cloud of condensation with just the nose, wingtips and fin tip visible to the accompaniment of an epic Meatbox blue note was indeed a delight!
Where are such characters today???
Last edited by BEagle; 1st Jan 2022 at 23:42.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Perhaps apocryphal, or a false memory from so long ago,, but I remember being informed that someone had scored more than 100% on the banner.
The reason being that the squadron was allowed to discard a number of those fired from those carried in the score calculation due to inherent inaccuracy during barrel spin-up and spin-down, and his hits exceeded the remaining allowed number of rounds.
The reason being that the squadron was allowed to discard a number of those fired from those carried in the score calculation due to inherent inaccuracy during barrel spin-up and spin-down, and his hits exceeded the remaining allowed number of rounds.
German 16 ship Alpha Jet formation (four lots of four) hits Donna Nook on the Monday (UK day) of Central Enterprise 89.
Leader dives in to FRA strafe - "Pop" just one round fired - presumably the gun jams
Moments later the Scottish range controller (can't remember his name) replies " Blah Blah callsign you score one"
Leader replies " Yah perfect - I only need the one bullet!"
I think the Germans using the Alpha for light CAS and helicopter hunting was probably a bit more practical than our using the Hawk as part of the mixed fighter force
Leader dives in to FRA strafe - "Pop" just one round fired - presumably the gun jams
Moments later the Scottish range controller (can't remember his name) replies " Blah Blah callsign you score one"
Leader replies " Yah perfect - I only need the one bullet!"
I think the Germans using the Alpha for light CAS and helicopter hunting was probably a bit more practical than our using the Hawk as part of the mixed fighter force
Perhaps apocryphal, or a false memory from so long ago,, but I remember being informed that someone had scored more than 100% on the banner.
The reason being that the squadron was allowed to discard a number of those fired from those carried in the score calculation due to inherent inaccuracy during barrel spin-up and spin-down, and his hits exceeded the remaining allowed number of rounds.
The reason being that the squadron was allowed to discard a number of those fired from those carried in the score calculation due to inherent inaccuracy during barrel spin-up and spin-down, and his hits exceeded the remaining allowed number of rounds.
Yep ORAC some sort of numerical adjustment for spin up/spin down is lodged in my memory somewhere, something along the line of you could end up with rounds going down the spout that weren’t actually regarded in the maths as being fired…but I can’t remember the exact details.
I certainly never hit the dizzy heights of having scores where it (if I’m remembering “it” correctly) was a critical factor.
We need a pet F-4 QWI to pass comment.
Last edited by wiggy; 2nd Jan 2022 at 07:23.
https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/153180-reportedgun-dispersion/page/3/"From "Flying Guns – the Modern Era: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations since 1945""
Here is the whole passage.
"Accuracy of the guns varies depending on the weapon and the installation. It is measured in mils (one mil equals one metre dispersion at 1,000 m). The .50 inch M3 could manage about 5 mils. The four Mk.12 cannon in the F8U were regarded as inaccurate, reportedly achieving only 12 mils (or 3.6 m at 300 m). The F 100 with four M39 cannon could get all of the shots within 8 mils and 75% within 4 mils. The M61 is capable of about 3-4 mils when internally mounted, although the centreline gunpod used in the F 4 is less rigid and can manage only 8-10 mils."
The M61 is capable of about 3-4 mils when internally mounted, although the centreline gunpod used in the F 4 is less rigid and can manage only 8-10 mils. (one mil equals one metre dispersion at 1,000 m)
"Accuracy of the guns varies depending on the weapon and the installation. It is measured in mils (one mil equals one metre dispersion at 1,000 m). The .50 inch M3 could manage about 5 mils. The four Mk.12 cannon in the F8U were regarded as inaccurate, reportedly achieving only 12 mils (or 3.6 m at 300 m). The F 100 with four M39 cannon could get all of the shots within 8 mils and 75% within 4 mils. The M61 is capable of about 3-4 mils when internally mounted, although the centreline gunpod used in the F 4 is less rigid and can manage only 8-10 mils."
I was on F4's for several years at Coningsby, Wildenrath, Stanley & MPA, as an armourer.
The SUU gun had six barrels, the primary barrel was harmonised, then barrels 3 & five were harmonised to the primary. This meant that the rounds fired from the primary barrel went where you aimed, but the rest went in a spread around the aiming point, a bit like a cross beween a rifle and a shot gun.
The Gun in The SUU Pod had a clearing cam and a firing cam, when you stopped firing, the live rounds went to the back of the gun and were ejected out the bottom as live rounds when you started firing again. That is why you did not count every round as fired in your calculations.
Some crews were natural gunners, others not so, this occasionaly led to us being requested to load a "Tartan" belt into the A/C of a good crew, ie the 50 rounds visible in the conveyor being the colour as stated in the 700, whilst the remaining rounds in the drum were the colour of the crew who were having trouble hitting the banner.
Sometimes the team collecting the dropped banner and taking it to Ops for scoring had to take out a tin of tipping paint and a broom handle...
The SUU gun had six barrels, the primary barrel was harmonised, then barrels 3 & five were harmonised to the primary. This meant that the rounds fired from the primary barrel went where you aimed, but the rest went in a spread around the aiming point, a bit like a cross beween a rifle and a shot gun.
The Gun in The SUU Pod had a clearing cam and a firing cam, when you stopped firing, the live rounds went to the back of the gun and were ejected out the bottom as live rounds when you started firing again. That is why you did not count every round as fired in your calculations.
Some crews were natural gunners, others not so, this occasionaly led to us being requested to load a "Tartan" belt into the A/C of a good crew, ie the 50 rounds visible in the conveyor being the colour as stated in the 700, whilst the remaining rounds in the drum were the colour of the crew who were having trouble hitting the banner.
Sometimes the team collecting the dropped banner and taking it to Ops for scoring had to take out a tin of tipping paint and a broom handle...
When I first heard the story about George scoring 100% + it was also noted that he fired very short bursts at exactly the right range. This multiplied the number of discounted rounds by the huge number of passes he was able to complete. Most F-4 pilots I knew preferred the opposite technique cos it was a lot more fun. The fact that George also had a great pair of hands was never in dispute.
