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French beaches

Old 29th Nov 2021, 09:51
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Trim Stab - inarguable summary !
Why we Brits should expect the French to take action on our behalf, and for our sole benefit, is quite beyond me. Whingeing about other nations' lack of action for our benefit, when the Buffoon and his mindless supporters have 'taken back control', is beyond 'having cake and eating it' - it's just juvenile tantrums ... unsurprising, of course !
When Patel is the 'moving force' for action and the Immigration Minister is Foster, one's expectations should be low.
For any not familiar, Foster was one of the Tweedle-Dum - Tweedle-Dee pair who regularly inhabited the front bench furthest from the Speaker and leapt smartly to their feet, constantly, to make Government adoring interventions. The effort has borne fruit for Foster, as well, possibly, as producing well-honed leg muscles !!
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 09:51
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Originally Posted by charliegolf
Trim Stab, all clear. But sticking a knife in those dinghies comes with no redress against the authorities for all the reasons you gave. Every boat I've seen is grossly overloaded. that's a safety reason to not allow departure. The French don't want to keep them there.
Grossly overloaded to make a channel crossing, yes. But not grossly overloaded just to go a few hundred metres offshore. Indeed you can just go swimming completely naked offshore if you want to...

The French police don't have the right to damage people's property without reason. They are allowed to slash the tents of illegal campers if they have been warned. But they can't just go around vandalising boats...

People in France are getting really fed up with the UK blaming them for a problem that is entirely created by UK, and which the French police have few powers to stop,and which is costing French taxpayer a lot of money (UK is not covering all the costs despite what you might read in UK press).

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Old 29th Nov 2021, 10:02
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Originally Posted by Herod
Time the UK had another think about ID cards? Many people have ID cards for where they work, the military, NHS local government etc. As a 74 year-old volunteer, I have photo ID for my position. What is the problem?
How exactly would ID cards prevent any of what is currently going on in the Channel?
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 10:12
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Originally Posted by melmothtw
How exactly would ID cards prevent any of what is currently going on in the Channel?
Read the thread - ID cards make it harder to work in the black economy and get access to housing and healtcare, open bank accounts, get telephone contracts and all the other administration that is needed to make life viable and enjoyable.

In UK, people can easily live in the black economy - some estimates are that there are up to a million people in UK lliving illegally, working in the black economy (not paying tax or NI contributions) but lowering hourly wages for legal workers, and costing taxpayer money when they get ill and taken to hospital, or commit crime and are taken to prison.

You just can't do it so easily in France or elsewhere in EU, because we have to have ID cards. No ID means no bank account, no phone contract, no healthcare, no chance of legally working, no chance of legally renting.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 10:15
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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ID cards have famously halted all illegal immigration into the EU, US, etc. Can see no problem with them working in the UK also.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 10:30
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Concentrating on 'policing' the illegal immigrants seems like a complete waste of time. It seems to me the focus should be on the gangs who arrange the crossings. Treat them like organised drug runners and enemies of the state and set up a joint military force with Belgium, Netherlands, France and Italy - and eradicate them. No gangs, no crossings.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 10:50
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Originally Posted by melmothtw
ID cards have famously halted all illegal immigration into the EU, US, etc. Can see no problem with them working in the UK also.
They don't stop it completely, but they are a useful tool.

There is a movement in France - the "Gilet Noires" - of mostly francophone African illegal migrants who are demanding ID cards. They obviously don't get a lot of sympathy from French public or authorities. So a lot of them are trying to get to UK because they can easily work illegally in UK.

Personally I like having to carry my ID card in France. I don't see why people in UK are so opposed to them. If you are law abiding, they are useful.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 11:09
  #28 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Trim Stab
Personally I like having to carry my ID card in France. I don't see why people in UK are so opposed to them. If you are law abiding, they are useful.
I was just asked to show some i/d to collect a package. Used my driving licence which, of course, I'm not obliged to have and don't have a current passport - a UK i/d card could be an asset but some people squeal in outrage whenever it is suggested. No idea why, I'd like one.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 11:10
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clareprop
Concentrating on 'policing' the illegal immigrants seems like a complete waste of time. It seems to me the focus should be on the gangs who arrange the crossings. Treat them like organised drug runners and enemies of the state and set up a joint military force with Belgium, Netherlands, France and Italy - and eradicate them. No gangs, no crossings.
... and precisely which policing regime has stopped "organised drug-runners and enemies of the State" ????
From evidence, the only effective reduction in drug-running, comes from making drug use legal.
So ......... ?
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 11:14
  #30 (permalink)  

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An interesting suggestion in the letters page of today's Times. Any refugee or asylum seeker who provides the French authorities with information about the smuggler, that leads to a successful prosecution, would be granted permission to enter the UK.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 11:38
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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We've seen many pictures of French police watching the boat launches, particularly the front-page one of two policemen using their VW headlights to floodlight a large RIB launch by an estimated 45/50 athletic young men (oops, sorry I meant children). Many years back I saw a handful of police trying to contain 2000 rioters. It didn't end well, as most of the personnel who served in Northern Ireland can tell you.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 11:40
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clareprop
Concentrating on 'policing' the illegal immigrants seems like a complete waste of time. It seems to me the focus should be on the gangs who arrange the crossings. Treat them like organised drug runners and enemies of the state and set up a joint military force with Belgium, Netherlands, France and Italy - and eradicate them. No gangs, no crossings.
That would create some interesting jurisdiction issues even within Europe and ignores the fact that the gangs are often based in the country of origin. Even if you succeed, you will find criminal nature abhors a lucrative vacuum and you end up playing an expensive version of whack-a-mole.
Then there is the issue that many of the groups are actually self financing.

No. the gangs and the boats are a symptom, not the disease. Eliminate the reasons for the migration, not the means.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 11:43
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Geriaviator
We've seen many pictures of French police watching the boat launches, particularly the front-page one of two policemen using their VW headlights to floodlight a large RIB launch by an estimated 45/50 athletic young men (oops, sorry I meant children). Many years back I saw a handful of police trying to contain 2000 rioters. It didn't end well, as most of the personnel who served in Northern Ireland can tell you.
Please tell us, what law was being broken that would give the police the reason to intervene?

Equally, we have also seen pictures of the UK authorities helping the refugees ashore in the UK. Why are you not demanding they be thrown back in the ocean?
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 11:48
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by treadigraph
a UK i/d card could be an asset but some people squeal in outrage whenever it is suggested. No idea why, I'd like one.
Trouble with asking that question on this forum is that most of us participants carried an ID card throughout our careers and had no problem with the concept, so there is unlikely to be anyone around who can present the opposing view. Have to say it never bothered me, and wouldn't today.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 11:48
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Ninthace
Perhaps a grossly overloaded vessel? The French are not keen on wasting money on rescues, fair enough. Again long out of touch but I recall they charged for helo rescue of silly skiers and S&R for downed light aircraft. But my point is that two men are not going to stop a crowd of 50 who don't want to be stopped.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 11:56
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Geriaviator
Ninthace
Perhaps a grossly overloaded vessel? The French are not keen on wasting money on rescues, fair enough. Again long out of touch but I recall they charged for helo rescue of silly skiers and S&R for downed light aircraft. But my point is that two men are not going to stop a crowd of 50 who don't want to be stopped.
Two men are not going to stop a large group doing anything that is not illegal, especially if the group, which might become a burden on the authorities, is trying to leave the country.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 12:14
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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I’m not sure it’s been mentioned in the UK press but there’s been some talk for some time on this side of the water that the smugglers have become very adept at trying to saturate the “defenses” at one or two points along the beaches in an attempt to reduce the ability of the Flics to interfere with operations….politico is carrying this story ATM


The people smugglers have become better organized, said Magnin, with several boats often setting off at the same time in operations that are “necessarily coordinated.” The crossings have also continued later into the year, whereas they used to pause during the winter months.

The French police patrols on the beach have grown in response, from less than 200 to 800 deployed officers on average daily, according to Laroye, drawing on more and more inland resources

https://www.politico.eu/article/peop...nel-migration/
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 12:49
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trim Stab
They would indeed - in theory - be a cheap solution. The problem is structural. Frontex puts out competitive tenders for these sorts of operations in EU (not just handed out to tory MPs mates like in UK). It is very difficult for private companies to make money out of bidding for Frontex operations. There is a big capital cost fo acquiring and running a fleet of such aircraft, and then the contract is typically of short terms and is tendered out again at the end of the contract. Si there is no stability for private companies offering ISR aircraft, and margins are tiny. Also, Frontex is an EU operation to prevent people entering EU - not leaving - so really this is not a priority for Frontex.

So it comes back to UK government paying for them. The French would likely insist that they are based in France if they are patrolling the French coastline, and subject to French regulations, and EASA regulated and EASA AOC. Rather unlikely that the UK government would agree to set up a French company to run such an operation...

So take them on in the RAF / Army as we used to operate the islanders, I am sure they would be a cheaper solution than the A400 use and would be a cheap viable platform to use elsewhere, aiding police searches, maritime and on shore surveillance.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 12:59
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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The UK Coast Guard has 4 fixed wing assets 3xCessna F406 and 1xCessna 404, I have seen at least one of these being used to patrol the Straits of Dover in the past.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 14:03
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Some in safety better than arbitrary number with casualties

Some are always going to make it. Most are not going to be sent back. If we showed willing by setting up an immigration/asylum centre in France and agreed to take "N" where "N" is somewhat less than the number making it anyway, then I think the EU would accept deportations of those who turn up in England without asylum papers.

Better than impotent rage, n'est ce pas?
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