AUKUS
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Location: Oz
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Thanks to the likes of Adam Bandt et al I can see this debate getting very silly very quickly.
A Chernobyl in every city ? Really ?
Australia, UK and Us sign new treaty to share nuclear submarine secrets and build a fleet and operate of nuclear hunter-killer submarines (SSN not SSBN) based in Adelaide.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/bid...co-2021-09-15/
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-a...15-p58rzz.html
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/bid...co-2021-09-15/
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-a...15-p58rzz.html
Personally, I think the nuclear subs are a good move, I think we should arm them with nuclear missiles however. I mean, if you're going to have a deterrent, may as well have a real one.
Ideal jet for Australia.
And both platforms are special weapons capable.
Which Hugh White says needs to be part of the discussion - his report is very interesting reading.
The Australian public is hopelessly naive in my view - I am in favour of a full nuclear deterrent.
Just a query, I believe one of the likely subs that Australia will choose to acquire will be the US Virginia Class which is an SSBN. As far as I'm aware, SSN means Sub Surface Nuclear (Nuclear referring to the propulsion), SSBN is the same but carries Ballistic Missiles - hence Sub Surface Ballistic Nuclear - in both instances 'Nuclear' is referring to the power-plant, not what is on the tips of the missiles. Ballistic Missiles can carry conventional warheads and if we get what is essentially a Virginia Class, it will have a Virtical Launch System, hard to imagine Australia not taking advantage of that capability and putting conventional BMs on it (or having the option in future).
Personally, I think the nuclear subs are a good move, I think we should arm them with nuclear missiles however. I mean, if you're going to have a deterrent, may as well have a real one.
Personally, I think the nuclear subs are a good move, I think we should arm them with nuclear missiles however. I mean, if you're going to have a deterrent, may as well have a real one.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Just a query, I believe one of the likely subs that Australia will choose to acquire will be the US Virginia Class which is an SSBN
Early block Virginia class boats had 12 vertical launch tubes for conventional tomahawk cruise missiles. The block 3 boats replaced these with larger vertical payload (VLP) tubes able to carry up to 7 tomahawk or other payloads such as SF UAVs for infiltration etc. From from 2025 onwards 9 of the last block will be stretched versions including a VPM module containing another 4 VLPs, increasing their conventional firepower
This isn’t an innovation - the USN has 4 SSGN boats (modified Ohio class) do the same job, but those will, presumably, be retired at the same time as the SBN boats are replaced boats are being retired and replaced by the Columbia class from 2029 onwards.
The USN do not currently have a nuclear cruise missile, so no possibility of the new boats carrying nuclear weapons.
The USN are developing a new nuclear cruise missile, to enter service in about a decade. At which point they will be able to deploy them on their block 3-5 Virginia class boats if they wish.
Whether Australia will buy Virginia class boats and whether they would have any VLP/VLM is something I am sure will be a matter for discussion - but of course cruise missiles can be fired from conventional torpedo tubes, as the RN has amply demonstrated, so the point is moot except for regards the total number able to be carried.
In the meantime there has currently been no suggestion of Australia considering acquiring nuclear weapons.
http://submarinesuppliers.org/wp-con...ia-Payload.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio-c...GN_conversions
Time will tell and England, and its government, are fast becoming unstable.
Anyway, according to sleepy joe, the US has no closer ally than Australia.........Really?...I mean, really?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ter-aukus-pact
Last edited by Widger; 22nd Sep 2021 at 13:12.
Wales is stable, Scotland is stable, England & N Ireland are not stable
Can't see Australia buying B21's (even if they are for sale which I really doubt) - the cost will be extreme with no chance of offsets
Giving/selling to them presumes that Russia believes the Cubans and Venezuelans are technically savvy, competent, reliable along with a whole host of other attributes needed to successfully manage the weapons. It’s not in Russia’s best interests to have client states with nukes if they can’t properly manage them.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Getting to the stage where we might need a new thread just for ramifications for NATO….
https://www.eurointelligence.com/col...y-anglo-saxons
Snookered by Anglo-Saxons
The Europeans have misread Biden and misjudged Johnson. A bad combination
The withdrawal of an ambassador is the attempt to react to a 21st century strategic shift with 19th century diplomacy. Huffing and puffing achieves nothing. But France is right in one specific respect. The Aukus nuclear submarine alliance between the US, Australia and the UK will have lasting implications for Nato. Nato won’t be disbanded, but it will play a more peripheral role in the future.…..
Over time, I would expect Nato to wither, and the transatlantic link to weaken. The EU talks about strategic autonomy, but underestimates the size and, more importantly, the nature of the task. That would require a federal political union, with a federal foreign policy and European defence force, both independent of member states. To fund it, such a federal union would require tax raising and debt issuing powers.
The UK’s inevitable strategic realignment is making that task even harder because the UK used to play a critical part in European security, one that Germany will not fill.
The adult version of strategic autonomy is a very serious undertaking, for which the EU is not equipped. The collective failure to understand Biden’s foreign policy and the need for an alliance with the UK is telling us that the venture has no hope of succeeding.
Wolfgang Münchau is co-founder and director of Eurointelligence. He writes a weekly column on European affairs, syndicated to El Pais, Corriere della Sera and Handelsblatt.
https://www.eurointelligence.com/col...y-anglo-saxons
Snookered by Anglo-Saxons
The Europeans have misread Biden and misjudged Johnson. A bad combination
The withdrawal of an ambassador is the attempt to react to a 21st century strategic shift with 19th century diplomacy. Huffing and puffing achieves nothing. But France is right in one specific respect. The Aukus nuclear submarine alliance between the US, Australia and the UK will have lasting implications for Nato. Nato won’t be disbanded, but it will play a more peripheral role in the future.…..
Over time, I would expect Nato to wither, and the transatlantic link to weaken. The EU talks about strategic autonomy, but underestimates the size and, more importantly, the nature of the task. That would require a federal political union, with a federal foreign policy and European defence force, both independent of member states. To fund it, such a federal union would require tax raising and debt issuing powers.
The UK’s inevitable strategic realignment is making that task even harder because the UK used to play a critical part in European security, one that Germany will not fill.
The adult version of strategic autonomy is a very serious undertaking, for which the EU is not equipped. The collective failure to understand Biden’s foreign policy and the need for an alliance with the UK is telling us that the venture has no hope of succeeding.
Wolfgang Münchau is co-founder and director of Eurointelligence. He writes a weekly column on European affairs, syndicated to El Pais, Corriere della Sera and Handelsblatt.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Argentina has tried to buy fighters off of many countries over the past 40 years. What’s stopped them isn’t a French veto - it’s that they don’t have any money…
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The very day AUKUS was announced, French naval shipyards got a letter in the morning from the Australian government, stating that everything was fine and that they were happy with the process, ready to move forward to the next step. If that's not duplicity, tell me what it is.
This letter does exist, and will be published quite soon.
Brace for it.
Feeling the uncertain ground, now the Anglo-Saxons resort to jokes and pleasant words like "give my a break" "we understand your frustration".... "it's already behing us"
Anyway, we will all have white beards when the first Aussie SSN sails out of Darwin or anywhere else. Will be probably a second-hand USN something, with a sealed nuclear compartment under US control, and a bunch of crew with double passports, as it so commonly happens. But if it does suit them, who cares after all ?
Just for information, the day after AUKUS was announced, the Australian technicians and families in France were already packing their stuff, ready to leave - as in the Anglo-Saxon world, you can get banned immediately from your office and a company the day you are no longer needed. Nothing like that in Cherbourg - they were told by the management that they had French contracts, and that therefore they were still welcome and that a solution was going to be found for them - probably remaining Naval Group employees, in Cherbourg or somewhere else. A sharp contrast to the treatment they are getting from their own government....
For those expressing their unhappiness about French "colonialism " in the Pacific, I suggest they dig a little bit more in their Aborigin and Maori history...
When flying to Auckland, a regional F/O told me that he had been to Noumea once, and that great, "it was looking like France"
Therefore it was my pleasure to say "yes, of course, because IT IS France" - like it or not.
And suddely India is very interested in French SSN - so strange - to complement their current squadron of French-made Scorpene classic subs.
Why not, there is more potential, future and brain in 1/20 of India than in the whole Oz. And everybody knows that.
By the way, I flew Jaguars in the RAF. Your move.
Fifth "Scorpene" for Indian Navy. Who needs Oz ?
This letter does exist, and will be published quite soon.
Brace for it.
Feeling the uncertain ground, now the Anglo-Saxons resort to jokes and pleasant words like "give my a break" "we understand your frustration".... "it's already behing us"
Anyway, we will all have white beards when the first Aussie SSN sails out of Darwin or anywhere else. Will be probably a second-hand USN something, with a sealed nuclear compartment under US control, and a bunch of crew with double passports, as it so commonly happens. But if it does suit them, who cares after all ?
Just for information, the day after AUKUS was announced, the Australian technicians and families in France were already packing their stuff, ready to leave - as in the Anglo-Saxon world, you can get banned immediately from your office and a company the day you are no longer needed. Nothing like that in Cherbourg - they were told by the management that they had French contracts, and that therefore they were still welcome and that a solution was going to be found for them - probably remaining Naval Group employees, in Cherbourg or somewhere else. A sharp contrast to the treatment they are getting from their own government....
For those expressing their unhappiness about French "colonialism " in the Pacific, I suggest they dig a little bit more in their Aborigin and Maori history...
When flying to Auckland, a regional F/O told me that he had been to Noumea once, and that great, "it was looking like France"
Therefore it was my pleasure to say "yes, of course, because IT IS France" - like it or not.
And suddely India is very interested in French SSN - so strange - to complement their current squadron of French-made Scorpene classic subs.
Why not, there is more potential, future and brain in 1/20 of India than in the whole Oz. And everybody knows that.
By the way, I flew Jaguars in the RAF. Your move.
Fifth "Scorpene" for Indian Navy. Who needs Oz ?
Last edited by recceguy; 22nd Sep 2021 at 21:20. Reason: spelling ....
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
And suddely India is very interested in French SSN
For those expressing their unhappiness about French "colonialism " in the Pacific, I suggest they dig a little bit more in their Aborigin and Maori history...
Interestingly neither do the local inhabitants it seems. I would be interested to hear what the Vrench secret services and others are doing to persuade the people otherwise….
https://www.npr.org/2021/03/11/97527...in-the-pacific
Whatever, it is merely to point out the USA doesn’t see France as a major player in the region - or at least not one on their side because of their different policy on China.
Fifth "Scorpene" for Indian Navy. Who needs Oz ?
* No contract yet cancelled as far as I know, though future follow-on phases may not be signed or implemented.
Last edited by ORAC; 22nd Sep 2021 at 20:53.
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It was so good to see them running away at KBL recently, we were playing the vid's again and again.....