AUKUS

[rattman]

I dont trust the sun. But they are claiming its done deal for astutes.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/213565...eal-australia/

[golder]

"Insiders say ministers would be open to building a sub for another ally — like Australia "

Canada needs nukes, for under the ice.

[rattman]

Originally Posted by golder

"Insiders say ministers would be open to building a sub for another ally — like Australia "

Canada needs nukes, for under the ice.

Canada will never get nuke boats while they and the US are fighting over the northwest passage being internal waterways or international shipping channel

[artee]

Originally Posted by rattman

I dont trust the sun. But they are claiming its done deal for astutes.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/213565...eal-australia/

But their language in places is a bit ambiguous:

"Ministers are said to be open “in principle” to the idea of building conventionally-armed nuke-powered subs, like Britain’s Astute Class for them which cost nearly £2billion each."

[golder]

VIDEO: US or British engineers may 'assist' onboard Australia's nuclear submarines, says Vice Admiral Jonathan Mead
17 minute interview
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-...oard/101968996

[rattman]

The SDR (strategic defence review) was delivered last night to Australian government. Its classified and allegedly contains a section on the SSN's so we wont be seeing it publically before the announcement next month, if at all

https://archive.is/iPvBs

[Asturias56]

About 4 days before some politician leaks it to the media...................

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/harry_lye/status...RefQ2uJMxgGO1w

Rumours that the UK is prepared to sell last two Astute’s off the production line to Australia.

https://t.co/405Qds8ESb

Could Australia jump the AUKUS submarine queue?

…However, rumours the Britain is prepared to immediately sell Australia two Astute class nuclear submarines – HMS Agamemnon and HMS Agincourt, due for completion in 2024 and 2026 – make a lot of sense for both nations, if true.…

Long term, it seems the three AUKUS partners might shift to a joint modular design and integrated production process, similar to the Joint Strike Fighter project.….

Enter the British Astute class. Given Astutes will be discontinued after the production of the sixth and seventh vessels, most analysts assumed they weren’t a viable option.

By jumping the queue, Australia helps manufacturer BAE avoid the loss of skills and production capability that occurs in a stop-start shipbuilding process.

Building nine Astutes bridges the “valley of death” between BAE completing the seventh Astute and starting work on the new UK ballistic submarines. Importantly, Australia and the UK get the subs they need, while AUKUS increases its total submarine count….

[Asturias56]

the problem with that article is that there is no "Valley of Death" between the Astutes and the Dreadnought SSBN's

The first SSBN was commenced 7 years ago and steel has been cut on 3 of the 4 planned boats

Agincourt - the last of the ordered SSN's - is planned to enter service "in 2026" - after an 8 year (I know, I know) build.

I can't see there is a "start-stop" in fact I suspect the SSBN's are being delayed due to the time it takes to complete the last two SSN's

To build two more Astutes for Australia would extend the SSN programme by 16 years out and selling two "off the shelf" would reduce the RN SSN fleet to 5 for that period as the Trafalgar's are already 30 years old and in desperate need of replacement.

[rattman]

Agree with Asturias to many fundamental errors to be legit. I hope its actually right because I believe its a no brainer win win for UK and AUS (depending on price)

astute 7-8 go to aus
final dreadnought goes into build
first dreadnought comes out 2031/2
first SSN(R) goes into build

There not a log of wiggle room because astute is EOL around 2035.

UK gets a cash injection into it budget a couple of billion pounds per hull, they get some income for the MIC as assuming all non basic maintainence and upgrades will be done in the UK.

[Flap Track 6]

'Another two Astutes' is pie-in-the-sky nonsense.

The UK submarine supply chain switched over to Dreadnought a couple of years ago. Dreadnought is needed to replace the aging and increasingly difficult difficult to maintain V boats.

There will be a life extension, technology refresh and capability upgrade for the Collins class unless they decide to buy an interim solution off the shelf (e.g. JB-III or S-80).

[ORAC]

Biggest problem for the rumours is that there is no chance of any more PWR-2 reactors. The order for the core for the last, for Agincourt, was ordered in 2012 and the line is now shut. The production plant is now in the middle of a major rebuild to produce the PWR-3 cores for Dreadnaught and SSNR - which is too big for the Astute hull.

if there is a question it is whether the UK could manage with a fleet of 5 Astute and a crew/use sharing arrangement with Australia for the last 2 under SSNR arrives.

The RN only had 5 Swiftsure and went up to 7 for Trafalgar. If tasking for patrols in the southern hemisphere is shared with Australia under AUKUS, would 5 surface for Atlantic operations supporting Vanguard/Dreadnaught patrols and other duties?

[Not_a_boffin]

Originally Posted by ORAC

The RN only had 5 Swiftsure and went up to 7 for Trafalgar. If tasking for patrols in the southern hemisphere is shared with Australia under AUKUS, would 5 surface for Atlantic operations supporting Vanguard/Dreadnaught patrols and other duties?

Not how it works. There were actually six Swiftsures - not to mention the six earlier boats. The number of boats in a class is not equal to the total number of SSN required. In the early 90s we had between 13 and 16 SSN in commission.

[ORAC]

And the last Swiftsures were decommissioned in 2010, so went down to 7. The first 3 Trafalgar were retired in 2009, 2010 and 2014. the first Astutes’ commissioned in 2010, 2013 and 2016 - so we dipped down to 5 in the 2010s.

Lets not get nostalgic, and depressed, about how many subs, frigates, carriers, squadrons and army troops and brigades we had in the 1980-1990s…

[Not_a_boffin]

Originally Posted by ORAC

And the last Swiftsures were decommissioned in 2010, so went down to 7. The first 3 Trafalgar were retired in 2009, 2010 and 2014. the first Astutes’ commissioned in 2010, 2013 and 2016 - so we dipped down to 5 in the 2010s.

Lets not get nostalgic, and depressed, about how many subs, frigates, carriers, squadrons and army troops and brigades we had in the 1980-1990s…

Oh it's not nostalgia - just pointing out that the number of SSN in a class is not necessarily the number in the fleet.

The two A-boats to the Ockers rumour is someone drawing the wrong conclusions. The RAN are at least a decade away from having the organisation necessary to even think about SSN ops and support.

[ORAC]

Which brings us back in a circle to my comment that dual-manning the last two Astutes and basing them in Oz for AUKUS ops would give them 10 years to train captains, engineers and crews as well as dockyard support in dealing with SSKN ops before their first boat is in the water.

[rattman]

Originally Posted by ORAC

Which brings us back in a circle to my comment that dual-manning the last two Astutes and basing them in Oz for AUKUS ops would give them 10 years to train captains, engineers and crews as well as dockyard support in dealing with SSKN ops before their first boat is in the water.

When I looked a few years ago, 50% of our captains had served in the RN as captains of nuclear subs or had been XO on them

[Not_a_boffin]

Originally Posted by ORAC

Which brings us back in a circle to my comment that dual-manning the last two Astutes and basing them in Oz for AUKUS ops would give them 10 years to train captains, engineers and crews as well as dockyard support in dealing with SSKN ops before their first boat is in the water.

Organisation is vastly more than crews and dockyard. A decade is an optimistic assessment.

[Asturias56]

much easier to transfer/loan/rent two early Virginias to the RAN - and keep doing as they reach their life expectancy -.

Sure the RAN would always be operating "pre-owned" boats but they'd still be very effective and all the big issues would have been fixed

[rattman]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

much easier to transfer/loan/rent two early Virginias to the RAN - and keep doing as they reach their life expectancy -.

Sure the RAN would always be operating "pre-owned" boats but they'd still be very effective and all the big issues would have been fixed

been rejected by the DOD and congress many times