For the First Time, Drones Autonomously Attacked Humans. This Is a Turning Point.
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For the First Time, Drones Autonomously Attacked Humans. This Is a Turning Point.
For the First Time, Drones Autonomously Attacked Humans. This Is a Turning Point. (msn.com)
https://youtu.be/Oqv9yaPLhEk
The field report (via New Scientist) describes how the Haftar Affiliated Forces (HAF), loyal to Libyan Field Marshal Khalifa Haftar, came under attack by drones from the rival Government of National Accord (GNA) forces. After a successful drive against HAF forces, the GNA launched drone attacks to press its advantage. From the report:
Logistics convoys and retreating HAF were subsequently hunted down and remotely engaged by the unmanned combat aerial vehicles or the lethal autonomous weapons systems such as the STM Kargu-2 (above) and other loitering munitions. The lethal autonomous weapons systems were programmed to attack targets without requiring data connectivity between the operator and the munition: in effect, a true “fire, forget and find” capability.The report says Turkey supplied the drones to Libyan forces, which is a violation of a UN arms embargo slapped on combatants in the conflict.
The Kargu-2 ( “Hawk”), from Turkish defense contractor STM, is a quadcopter drone designed to carry a weapons payload. STM’s marketing video below explicitly describes Kargu-2 as being capable of autonomous attack.
How does it work? First, the shooter loads coordinates into the Kargu-2 drone’s software, and then launches the drone. The drone will travel to those coordinates, identify likely “targets,” and execute a dive maneuver, swooping down on the target and blowing itself up as it detonates a shotgun-like explosive package.
In military parlance, this process is known as “fire and forget,” which means once the shooter launches the drone, they can do something else, like relocate, prepare another attack, or even go eat lunch.
Drone experts have been dreading this moment while advocating for a ban on autonomous attack drones.
“The UN report implying first use of autonomous weapons against soldiers paints an uncertain picture—however, that’s the point,” Zachary Kallenborn, an official U.S. Army “Mad Scientist” and national security consultant, tells Pop Mech. He continues:
“The first use of autonomous weapons in war won't be heralded with a giant fireball in the sky and dark words on how humanity has become Death, Destroyer of Worlds. First use of autonomous weapons may just look like an ordinary drone. The event illustrates a key challenge in any attempt to regulate or ban autonomous weapons: how can we be sure they were even used?” The Kargu-2 indeed looks like any other quadcopter drone. The major difference is the software, which might be difficult to obtain from scattered bits of plastic for forensic analysis. This raises the question: Could military forces modify civilian drones into human-hunting counterparts to attack civilians?
There are some events in the history of mankind, like the atomic bomb test in Alamogordo, New Mexico in 1945, that are so profound, they serve as a divider between one social, economic, or military era and another. The events in Libya may similarly divide the time when humans had full control of weapons, and a time when machines made their own decisions to kill.
https://youtu.be/Oqv9yaPLhEk
- Libyan forces reportedly used Kargu-2 drones to autonomously seek out and attack human targets.
- This is the first recorded case of using a self-hunting drone against people.
- Drone experts say this extremely dangerous development could be dangerous to people far beyond the traditional battlefield.
The field report (via New Scientist) describes how the Haftar Affiliated Forces (HAF), loyal to Libyan Field Marshal Khalifa Haftar, came under attack by drones from the rival Government of National Accord (GNA) forces. After a successful drive against HAF forces, the GNA launched drone attacks to press its advantage. From the report:
Logistics convoys and retreating HAF were subsequently hunted down and remotely engaged by the unmanned combat aerial vehicles or the lethal autonomous weapons systems such as the STM Kargu-2 (above) and other loitering munitions. The lethal autonomous weapons systems were programmed to attack targets without requiring data connectivity between the operator and the munition: in effect, a true “fire, forget and find” capability.The report says Turkey supplied the drones to Libyan forces, which is a violation of a UN arms embargo slapped on combatants in the conflict.
The Kargu-2 ( “Hawk”), from Turkish defense contractor STM, is a quadcopter drone designed to carry a weapons payload. STM’s marketing video below explicitly describes Kargu-2 as being capable of autonomous attack.
How does it work? First, the shooter loads coordinates into the Kargu-2 drone’s software, and then launches the drone. The drone will travel to those coordinates, identify likely “targets,” and execute a dive maneuver, swooping down on the target and blowing itself up as it detonates a shotgun-like explosive package.
In military parlance, this process is known as “fire and forget,” which means once the shooter launches the drone, they can do something else, like relocate, prepare another attack, or even go eat lunch.
Drone experts have been dreading this moment while advocating for a ban on autonomous attack drones.
“The UN report implying first use of autonomous weapons against soldiers paints an uncertain picture—however, that’s the point,” Zachary Kallenborn, an official U.S. Army “Mad Scientist” and national security consultant, tells Pop Mech. He continues:
“The first use of autonomous weapons in war won't be heralded with a giant fireball in the sky and dark words on how humanity has become Death, Destroyer of Worlds. First use of autonomous weapons may just look like an ordinary drone. The event illustrates a key challenge in any attempt to regulate or ban autonomous weapons: how can we be sure they were even used?” The Kargu-2 indeed looks like any other quadcopter drone. The major difference is the software, which might be difficult to obtain from scattered bits of plastic for forensic analysis. This raises the question: Could military forces modify civilian drones into human-hunting counterparts to attack civilians?
There are some events in the history of mankind, like the atomic bomb test in Alamogordo, New Mexico in 1945, that are so profound, they serve as a divider between one social, economic, or military era and another. The events in Libya may similarly divide the time when humans had full control of weapons, and a time when machines made their own decisions to kill.
Last edited by havoc; 1st Jun 2021 at 21:16. Reason: cut out ad
Whatever happened to Asimov's Laws of Robotics, whereby a robot may not harm a human, through action or inaction?
Don't these people play by the rules?
Don't these people play by the rules?
Skynet......... Awaken! 😕
Seems a little over the top, just another automatic killing machine, not fundamentally different from trip mines, just that this one goes out looking for targets.
Hard to see this as all that different from 'free fire zones' , doubt there was much ethical judgement involved there either.
Imho, the main concern is that second tier countries such as Turkey are leading a 'revolution in military affairs' and neither the US nor NATO have been invited.
Hard to see this as all that different from 'free fire zones' , doubt there was much ethical judgement involved there either.
Imho, the main concern is that second tier countries such as Turkey are leading a 'revolution in military affairs' and neither the US nor NATO have been invited.
Seems a little over the top, just another automatic killing machine, not fundamentally different from trip mines, just that this one goes out looking for targets.
Hard to see this as all that different from 'free fire zones' , doubt there was much ethical judgement involved there either.
Imho, the main concern is that second tier countries such as Turkey are leading a 'revolution in military affairs' and neither the US nor NATO have been invited.
Hard to see this as all that different from 'free fire zones' , doubt there was much ethical judgement involved there either.
Imho, the main concern is that second tier countries such as Turkey are leading a 'revolution in military affairs' and neither the US nor NATO have been invited.
I agree with your second paragraph and find it quite concerning.
Let me get one thing straight: I do not support this type of warfare (fire forget find). However, comparing to minefields there is one big difference; minefields though being static and dumb are very very dangerous for a very long time. Even today the minefields from Vietnam war keep getting toll amongst people that weren't even born when the mines were spread. Actually, it may well be that a child losing limb today for a land mine is the grand child of someone who weren't born when the war ended.
The drone, once out of battery/fuel will be harmless, depending on the weapons load of course.
I really want to emphasize that AI hunting down people without any chain of command with real human is not a good thing. But it is way different from mines.
The drone, once out of battery/fuel will be harmless, depending on the weapons load of course.
I really want to emphasize that AI hunting down people without any chain of command with real human is not a good thing. But it is way different from mines.
If you want a sobering view of the future watch are you scared yet, human? On bbc iPlayer. Good panorama programme on the rise of ai, china’s determination to be world leader, how it is being used in social control and finally how it is being weaponised.
Grenade launching mini drone tick the box
small drone with shapes charge that can swarm on to a building and fire said charge into your skull after recognising you tick the box
this is way beyond 1984, it is scary. If you think it isn’t then you may not be paying attention predator is so last century
Grenade launching mini drone tick the box
small drone with shapes charge that can swarm on to a building and fire said charge into your skull after recognising you tick the box
this is way beyond 1984, it is scary. If you think it isn’t then you may not be paying attention predator is so last century
Angel has Fallen
With too much time on my hands I often find myself searching for entertainment on Netflix. I recently watched the movie Angel has Fallen. It's not very good and I wouldn't recommend anybody watch it. Except for one scene which is very relevant to this thread.
The scene involves a swarming drone attack on the US President and his security detail. Whilst it is obviously 'Hollywoodised' it is not too far beyond the realms of what is actually possible nowadays. It is very thought provoking and vaguely terrifying.
It makes you realise that cheap, numerous drones could make humans on the battlefield just as endangered and disposable as they became on the battlefields of WW1. Back then widespread use of machine guns and more modern artillery caused unimaginable levels of casualties and we were slow to learn. Now we might find intelligent drones could seek out and overwhelm ground forces so easily that they should either not show up or stay inside their heavily armoured vehicles.
These numerous drones could be ground or air deployed. Just because we in the West worry about the implications of such technology on civilian populations others will not care so much. Indeed Iran (and their proxies) have already shown a willingness to use drones quite freely.
BV
The scene involves a swarming drone attack on the US President and his security detail. Whilst it is obviously 'Hollywoodised' it is not too far beyond the realms of what is actually possible nowadays. It is very thought provoking and vaguely terrifying.
It makes you realise that cheap, numerous drones could make humans on the battlefield just as endangered and disposable as they became on the battlefields of WW1. Back then widespread use of machine guns and more modern artillery caused unimaginable levels of casualties and we were slow to learn. Now we might find intelligent drones could seek out and overwhelm ground forces so easily that they should either not show up or stay inside their heavily armoured vehicles.
These numerous drones could be ground or air deployed. Just because we in the West worry about the implications of such technology on civilian populations others will not care so much. Indeed Iran (and their proxies) have already shown a willingness to use drones quite freely.
BV
Once potential adversaries start fielding autonomous weapon systems, the question could quickly become whether it's ethical for us to put humans up against them.
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small drone with shapes charge that can swarm on to a building and fire said charge into your skull after recognising you tick the box this is way beyond 1984, it is scary. If you think it isn’t then you may not be paying attention predator is so last century
On a related note:
That was fictionalised from a film i.e. not real to my knowledge. That said, it was eminently doable and no doubt got some weapons designers thinking...
On a related note:
https://youtu.be/Y2rCB-1AlGc
On a related note:
https://youtu.be/Y2rCB-1AlGc
A UN Agreement....worth exactly squat!
Space was not supposed to be militarized either....guess what!
Poison Gas was outlawed....guess what!
Large bore machine guns were not supposed to be used against infantry....guess what!
Wounded and captured enemy soldiers were not to be murdered....how did that turn out?
The Human Species will find new ways to kill...and no amount of words etched onto parchment or Digital memory is going to stop one side or the other from trying to gain an advantage over a perceived adversary.
How many Nukes stored away for use....I reckon someone somewhere is sick enough to decide to open up one of those cans of instant sunshine.....and there agreements about that too I suppose.
Conventional wisdom is the Western Powers cannot fight a conventional war with China and win....Korea gave us a hint of how that kind of War might turn out.
So...if we are to counter the hordes of Chinese Soldiers....how do we accomplish that....appease....surrender...give them what they want....or fight....and with what and how...and win?
Space was not supposed to be militarized either....guess what!
Poison Gas was outlawed....guess what!
Large bore machine guns were not supposed to be used against infantry....guess what!
Wounded and captured enemy soldiers were not to be murdered....how did that turn out?
The Human Species will find new ways to kill...and no amount of words etched onto parchment or Digital memory is going to stop one side or the other from trying to gain an advantage over a perceived adversary.
How many Nukes stored away for use....I reckon someone somewhere is sick enough to decide to open up one of those cans of instant sunshine.....and there agreements about that too I suppose.
Conventional wisdom is the Western Powers cannot fight a conventional war with China and win....Korea gave us a hint of how that kind of War might turn out.
So...if we are to counter the hordes of Chinese Soldiers....how do we accomplish that....appease....surrender...give them what they want....or fight....and with what and how...and win?
Sasless
you make a compelling point. The scary part is China has stated it wants to be world leader in this field by 2030. So you human wave might be accompanied by an ai drone wave as well and this tech is very very cheap
here is the documentary I mention well worth some of your
you make a compelling point. The scary part is China has stated it wants to be world leader in this field by 2030. So you human wave might be accompanied by an ai drone wave as well and this tech is very very cheap
here is the documentary I mention well worth some of your
I am going to be the devil's advocate here and say that this happened for the first time some time during WW2 when the first proximity fuzed AA round destroyed an enemy aircraft, or if you want something that can steer, a bit later in WW2 when the Germans launched their first passive acoustic homing torpedo. In 1956 the Egyptians destroyed an Israeli destroyer with an SS-N-2 Styx SSM. When was the first kill with an air-to-air missile? Vietnam? Brimstone is autonomous in millimetre-wave homing mode. ALARM searched autonomously for its target.
I am going to be the devil's advocate here and say that this happened for the first time some time during WW2 when the first proximity fuzed AA round destroyed an enemy aircraft, or if you want something that can steer, a bit later in WW2 when the Germans launched their first passive acoustic homing torpedo. In 1956 the Egyptians destroyed an Israeli destroyer with an SS-N-2 Styx SSM. When was the first kill with an air-to-air missile? Vietnam? Brimstone is autonomous in millimetre-wave homing mode. ALARM searched autonomously for its target.
Salute!
There's a lotta difference between a long range weapon that can acquire and attack a programmed target and a weapon that actually searches for a "target" and then attacks. Only "old" weapons that were true launch and leave were the IR missiles that needed to lock on prior to launch. Then came the Phoenix in the 70's. And finally the Slammer and others since the 90's.
Our existing cruise missiles and A2A missiles that have terminal homing "go blind" if they do not detect the programmed target. The most indescrimanent system I ever worked with was the "sensor fuzed weapon".. that thing was a CBU with a buncha cannisters containing a dozen or so sub munitions. Very complicated sequence, but the thing actually worked when tested here at Eglin and out west. That thing is the only one I know of that actually "seeks" a target before employing its "self forging" kenetic shot. And it only does it during the end game and has no re-attack capability.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBU-97...r_Fuzed_Weapon
So the part of this latest episode disturbing me is the "Skynet" scenario. God forbid if we integrate AI with this kinda system.
Gums sends...
There's a lotta difference between a long range weapon that can acquire and attack a programmed target and a weapon that actually searches for a "target" and then attacks. Only "old" weapons that were true launch and leave were the IR missiles that needed to lock on prior to launch. Then came the Phoenix in the 70's. And finally the Slammer and others since the 90's.
Our existing cruise missiles and A2A missiles that have terminal homing "go blind" if they do not detect the programmed target. The most indescrimanent system I ever worked with was the "sensor fuzed weapon".. that thing was a CBU with a buncha cannisters containing a dozen or so sub munitions. Very complicated sequence, but the thing actually worked when tested here at Eglin and out west. That thing is the only one I know of that actually "seeks" a target before employing its "self forging" kenetic shot. And it only does it during the end game and has no re-attack capability.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBU-97...r_Fuzed_Weapon
So the part of this latest episode disturbing me is the "Skynet" scenario. God forbid if we integrate AI with this kinda system.
Gums sends...
Thread Starter
America's New Drone Killer Blasts Targets With Stringy Pink Stuff
America's New Drone Killer Blasts Targets With Stringy Pink Stuff (msn.com)
The system, known as Mobile Force Protection, launches a drone to intercept other small unmanned aerial systems (sUAS). The drone sprays a mysterious, disabling pink material that forces the attacking drone to crash. Watch it in action here:
The Mobile Force Protection (MFP) program began in 2017, designed to “develop an integrated system capable of defeating self-guided sUAS (i.e., those that do not rely on a radio or GPS receiver for their operation) attacking a high-value convoy on the move.” DARPA wanted a system that could detect sUAS at a distance of 1 kilometer (6/10 of a mile) and neutralize a drone at that distance, cheaply and with minimal chance of damage to civilian property or injuries to civilians.
MFP also needed to be compact and deployable on a ground vehicle as small as a Humvee or U.S. Coast Guard 25-foot patrol boat.
The new system looks like it hits the mark. The MFP vehicle, a modified Humvee, uses an X-band radar to automatically detect and track hostile drones. MFP then launches a counter-drone interceptor—in this case, a hovering drone that looks like the IG-88B assassin droid from Star Wars.
The counter-drone races to catch up with the incoming enemy drone, paces it, and then launches what DARPA calls “strong, stringy streamers.” The pink streamers foul the rotors of the enemy drone, causing it to lose propulsion and crash into the ground.
It’s not clear what the “strong, stringy streamers” are, although the stuff looks like military-grade Silly String. According to DARPA, the MFP uses both the helicopter drone shown in the video and a fixed-wing airplane-style drone. The two interceptor drones demoed different methods to bring down enemies. DARPA credits defense contractor Dynetics as the primary systems integrator.
Back in 2017, when DARPA initiated the MFP program, small drone attacks against convoys probably seemed like science fiction. But science fiction turned to science fact in 2020, when autonomous hunter-killer drones attacked retreating Libyan militia convoys. In the span of just a few years, drone attacks on convoys have become part of warfare. Fortunately, if and when U.S. forces suffer a similar attack, DARPA already has a solution.
- DARPA introduced a new drone defense designed to disable drones attacking convoys.
- The Mobile Force Protection system uses a drone to spray weird pink stuff on other drones, forcing them to crash.
- The system is designed to be usable in populated areas without endangering nearby civilians and friendlies.
The system, known as Mobile Force Protection, launches a drone to intercept other small unmanned aerial systems (sUAS). The drone sprays a mysterious, disabling pink material that forces the attacking drone to crash. Watch it in action here:
The Mobile Force Protection (MFP) program began in 2017, designed to “develop an integrated system capable of defeating self-guided sUAS (i.e., those that do not rely on a radio or GPS receiver for their operation) attacking a high-value convoy on the move.” DARPA wanted a system that could detect sUAS at a distance of 1 kilometer (6/10 of a mile) and neutralize a drone at that distance, cheaply and with minimal chance of damage to civilian property or injuries to civilians.
MFP also needed to be compact and deployable on a ground vehicle as small as a Humvee or U.S. Coast Guard 25-foot patrol boat.
The new system looks like it hits the mark. The MFP vehicle, a modified Humvee, uses an X-band radar to automatically detect and track hostile drones. MFP then launches a counter-drone interceptor—in this case, a hovering drone that looks like the IG-88B assassin droid from Star Wars.
The counter-drone races to catch up with the incoming enemy drone, paces it, and then launches what DARPA calls “strong, stringy streamers.” The pink streamers foul the rotors of the enemy drone, causing it to lose propulsion and crash into the ground.
It’s not clear what the “strong, stringy streamers” are, although the stuff looks like military-grade Silly String. According to DARPA, the MFP uses both the helicopter drone shown in the video and a fixed-wing airplane-style drone. The two interceptor drones demoed different methods to bring down enemies. DARPA credits defense contractor Dynetics as the primary systems integrator.
Back in 2017, when DARPA initiated the MFP program, small drone attacks against convoys probably seemed like science fiction. But science fiction turned to science fact in 2020, when autonomous hunter-killer drones attacked retreating Libyan militia convoys. In the span of just a few years, drone attacks on convoys have become part of warfare. Fortunately, if and when U.S. forces suffer a similar attack, DARPA already has a solution.