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The question is how does all this "woke" business improve combat effectiveness of a military force
Not that I’ve got any issue with diversity, just that I suspect a military force’s greatest strength would be something more like “excellence in training”, “superior equipment & tactics” or “overwhelming firepower”.
So....the UK does not need a military....and can get by with just a puffed up Coast Guard......how would that have played out in the Falklands?
Jacko....please do recall Iceland got invaded....by our side during WWII.
Jacko....please do recall Iceland got invaded....by our side during WWII.
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Quite correct, and they do have a current military. Perhaps they would have wished for a stronger military back then… Some here wouldn’t agree of course
The question is how does all this "woke" business improve combat effectiveness of a military force....not who is offended or triggered or has their knickers in a wad over the use of some pronoun or rank while addressing others.
Is this latest surrender to Political Correctness actually in any way going to make the RAF or any other military force better at achieving its reason for being.....that being defending the Nation in combat with an aggressor enemy.
I see all of this as being a huge distraction from that mission....the training it requires to be prepared......assets that would otherwise be available.....and worst of all....it brings division among the Troops as they all deal with this.
Anything that dulls the point of the Spear is bad for the Force holding that Spear.
Is this latest surrender to Political Correctness actually in any way going to make the RAF or any other military force better at achieving its reason for being.....that being defending the Nation in combat with an aggressor enemy.
I see all of this as being a huge distraction from that mission....the training it requires to be prepared......assets that would otherwise be available.....and worst of all....it brings division among the Troops as they all deal with this.
Anything that dulls the point of the Spear is bad for the Force holding that Spear.
I remember when they got rid of females when they became pregnant, and didn’t allow homosexuality. This blunted effectiveness as we got rid of highly trained and skilled individuals. Guess what, when the rules changed, we got on with the job and nothing changed, apart from having a happier and more effective force.
Its laughable to see how triggered the old guard get at topics such as beards, LBTQ , “woke” etc and how much worse it is nowadays. The reality is that we are still as effective and have been so during the last few years of constant operations.
Its not binary. You can have diversity and be an effective fighting force.
I remember when they got rid of females when they became pregnant, and didn’t allow homosexuality. This blunted effectiveness as we got rid of highly trained and skilled individuals. Guess what, when the rules changed, we got on with the job and nothing changed, apart from having a happier and more effective force.
Its laughable to see how triggered the old guard get at topics such as beards, LBTQ , “woke” etc and how much worse it is nowadays. The reality is that we are still as effective and have been so during the last few years of constant operations.
I remember when they got rid of females when they became pregnant, and didn’t allow homosexuality. This blunted effectiveness as we got rid of highly trained and skilled individuals. Guess what, when the rules changed, we got on with the job and nothing changed, apart from having a happier and more effective force.
Its laughable to see how triggered the old guard get at topics such as beards, LBTQ , “woke” etc and how much worse it is nowadays. The reality is that we are still as effective and have been so during the last few years of constant operations.
Have you opened a newspaper over the last few years? Ever heard of the Crimea, Donetsk, Taiwan...NATO forward presence in the Baltics?
Please 'educate yourself'
Toad,
You miss the point entirely.....it is not about Diversity....it is all about the dividing us up into the various contingents and offering differing treatment of each minority group.
We need to be teaching "Inclusiveness" not "Diversity"....and focus upon what bonds us together into an effective fighting force.
When Women (the kind that can bear children) you mention were infused into Combat Units.....in order to hold a counseling session of one of them.....it became necessary to have a Witness of the session to ensure there was no complaint of misconduct by the Counselor.
During Desert Storm....the US Military lost 1,500 Personnel due to pregnancies.....the equivalent of a full Battalion....BEFORE the first Round was fired in anger.
How does that improve unit cohesiveness?
In the US Military today....we are seeing the advocacy of Critical Race Theory (CRT) that teaches all Whites are Racist.....how is that helpful?
I was around when merely being a Homosexual was a mortal Sin that got you removed from the Military......and any homosexual conduct got you Court Martialed and removed from the Service..
No doubt t here were many such folks that served honorably without being known for their being Homosexuals.....which is exactly how it should be.....do the job and be judged upon your performance and service.
By creating all this noise about it.....only generates problems.
It is not the identity or membership in the various communities that matters.....and that is where we have to get back to....and forget all the other.
I repeat myself here.....Anything that detracts from the Combat Capability....the Combat Effectiveness.....the Unit Cohesion......must not be allowed to exist in the Military.
Social change in the United States has been led by the US Military beginning with ending Segregation in the late 1940's.
The policy was changed....the Military complied.....well ahead of the society from which its members were drawn.
The Military sets higher standards for itself than does society in general.
That is why the Military IS different than the Society it protects and why those Standards are different than the society it draws from.
You miss the point entirely.....it is not about Diversity....it is all about the dividing us up into the various contingents and offering differing treatment of each minority group.
We need to be teaching "Inclusiveness" not "Diversity"....and focus upon what bonds us together into an effective fighting force.
When Women (the kind that can bear children) you mention were infused into Combat Units.....in order to hold a counseling session of one of them.....it became necessary to have a Witness of the session to ensure there was no complaint of misconduct by the Counselor.
During Desert Storm....the US Military lost 1,500 Personnel due to pregnancies.....the equivalent of a full Battalion....BEFORE the first Round was fired in anger.
How does that improve unit cohesiveness?
In the US Military today....we are seeing the advocacy of Critical Race Theory (CRT) that teaches all Whites are Racist.....how is that helpful?
I was around when merely being a Homosexual was a mortal Sin that got you removed from the Military......and any homosexual conduct got you Court Martialed and removed from the Service..
No doubt t here were many such folks that served honorably without being known for their being Homosexuals.....which is exactly how it should be.....do the job and be judged upon your performance and service.
By creating all this noise about it.....only generates problems.
It is not the identity or membership in the various communities that matters.....and that is where we have to get back to....and forget all the other.
I repeat myself here.....Anything that detracts from the Combat Capability....the Combat Effectiveness.....the Unit Cohesion......must not be allowed to exist in the Military.
Social change in the United States has been led by the US Military beginning with ending Segregation in the late 1940's.
The policy was changed....the Military complied.....well ahead of the society from which its members were drawn.
The Military sets higher standards for itself than does society in general.
That is why the Military IS different than the Society it protects and why those Standards are different than the society it draws from.
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This is who you need....
Prior to McRaven's time....many of the same principles he cited in his speech were being taught by others in the military.....many being NCO's.....Sergeants.....the backbone of the Army, Marines, and Air Force.....and Chief Petty Officers in the Navy.
This amazing fellow's Life Story and accomplishments bear witness to what those principles mean in combat and in life in general.
I was blessed to have met him briefly.....and to know of what he did that final day in Vietnam that earned him the Medal of Honor made it all the more special.
His is not as polished a speech as McRaven....but I think he is just as inspiring just the same.
The message is the same.
This amazing fellow's Life Story and accomplishments bear witness to what those principles mean in combat and in life in general.
I was blessed to have met him briefly.....and to know of what he did that final day in Vietnam that earned him the Medal of Honor made it all the more special.
His is not as polished a speech as McRaven....but I think he is just as inspiring just the same.
The message is the same.
Toad,
You miss the point entirely.....it is not about Diversity....it is all about the dividing us up into the various contingents and offering differing treatment of each minority group.
I don’t think I do at all. In over 3 decades of being in the military, and still serving, I can tell you categorically it’s about the complete opposite.
We need to be teaching "Inclusiveness" not "Diversity"....and focus upon what bonds us together into an effective fighting force. The RAF teaches Diversity AND Inclusivity. It’s about understanding that we are diverse while trying to be inclusive.
When Women (the kind that can bear children) you mention were infused into Combat Units.....in order to hold a counseling session of one of them.....it became necessary to have a Witness of the session to ensure there was no complaint of misconduct by the Counselor. Not relevant today, in the RAF.
During Desert Storm....the US Military lost 1,500 Personnel due to pregnancies.....the equivalent of a full Battalion....BEFORE the first Round was fired in anger.
How does that improve unit cohesiveness? It doesn’t, and people do get pregnant nowadays in the RAF. Life goes on. What is your solution? Ban pregnancy? Ban women? Desert Storm was still won.
In the US Military today....we are seeing the advocacy of Critical Race Theory (CRT) that teaches all Whites are Racist.....how is that helpful? It’s not. Perhaps that’s a policy in your armed forces. Not in mine.
I was around when merely being a Homosexual was a mortal Sin that got you removed from the Military......and any homosexual conduct got you Court Martialed and removed from the Service.. So was I. Now I serve with gay people. They are just as effective. Times move on thankfully.
No doubt t here were many such folks that served honorably without being known for their being Homosexuals.....which is exactly how it should be.....do the job and be judged upon your performance and service. I agree. No one cares what anyone’s sexuality is, neither is it requested or talked about. It’s not relevant.
By creating all this noise about it.....only generates problems. This is where you miss the point. Given when I joined there were a lot of people who were racist, sexist and homophobic, which led to bullying and people leaving in droves or suicide, the fact that we talk about it now does help. Times move on.
It is not the identity or membership in the various communities that matters.....and that is where we have to get back to....and forget all the other.
I repeat myself here.....Anything that detracts from the Combat Capability....the Combat Effectiveness.....the Unit Cohesion......must not be allowed to exist in the Military. Bullying, cliques and excluding people most definitely detracts from Unit Cohesion. Something I saw in my earlier years. Is there evidence in the RAF today that points to a lack of combat effectiveness? Given my experience, no.
Social change in the United States has been led by the US Military beginning with ending Segregation in the late 1940's. Good.
The policy was changed....the Military complied.....well ahead of the society from which its members were drawn. Good.
The Military sets higher standards for itself than does society in general. Same.
That is why the Military IS different than the Society it protects and why those Standards are different than the society it draws from.
You miss the point entirely.....it is not about Diversity....it is all about the dividing us up into the various contingents and offering differing treatment of each minority group.
I don’t think I do at all. In over 3 decades of being in the military, and still serving, I can tell you categorically it’s about the complete opposite.
We need to be teaching "Inclusiveness" not "Diversity"....and focus upon what bonds us together into an effective fighting force. The RAF teaches Diversity AND Inclusivity. It’s about understanding that we are diverse while trying to be inclusive.
When Women (the kind that can bear children) you mention were infused into Combat Units.....in order to hold a counseling session of one of them.....it became necessary to have a Witness of the session to ensure there was no complaint of misconduct by the Counselor. Not relevant today, in the RAF.
During Desert Storm....the US Military lost 1,500 Personnel due to pregnancies.....the equivalent of a full Battalion....BEFORE the first Round was fired in anger.
How does that improve unit cohesiveness? It doesn’t, and people do get pregnant nowadays in the RAF. Life goes on. What is your solution? Ban pregnancy? Ban women? Desert Storm was still won.
In the US Military today....we are seeing the advocacy of Critical Race Theory (CRT) that teaches all Whites are Racist.....how is that helpful? It’s not. Perhaps that’s a policy in your armed forces. Not in mine.
I was around when merely being a Homosexual was a mortal Sin that got you removed from the Military......and any homosexual conduct got you Court Martialed and removed from the Service.. So was I. Now I serve with gay people. They are just as effective. Times move on thankfully.
No doubt t here were many such folks that served honorably without being known for their being Homosexuals.....which is exactly how it should be.....do the job and be judged upon your performance and service. I agree. No one cares what anyone’s sexuality is, neither is it requested or talked about. It’s not relevant.
By creating all this noise about it.....only generates problems. This is where you miss the point. Given when I joined there were a lot of people who were racist, sexist and homophobic, which led to bullying and people leaving in droves or suicide, the fact that we talk about it now does help. Times move on.
It is not the identity or membership in the various communities that matters.....and that is where we have to get back to....and forget all the other.
I repeat myself here.....Anything that detracts from the Combat Capability....the Combat Effectiveness.....the Unit Cohesion......must not be allowed to exist in the Military. Bullying, cliques and excluding people most definitely detracts from Unit Cohesion. Something I saw in my earlier years. Is there evidence in the RAF today that points to a lack of combat effectiveness? Given my experience, no.
Social change in the United States has been led by the US Military beginning with ending Segregation in the late 1940's. Good.
The policy was changed....the Military complied.....well ahead of the society from which its members were drawn. Good.
The Military sets higher standards for itself than does society in general. Same.
That is why the Military IS different than the Society it protects and why those Standards are different than the society it draws from.
I distinctly remember the same arguments as these in 2000 when gay people were allowed to serve. Guess what, we’ve been involved in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sierra Leone, the GWOT and Iraq and Syria. I’ve neither seen nor heard of any cases whatsoever where Combat effectiveness was deemed to have lessened due to improved D&I.
Last edited by Toadstool; 21st Jun 2021 at 17:52.
Toad....to me it is about actions not identities.
That is where you and I see it differently I am thinking.
I care not about how one "identifies" but I do care about their conduct.....and prefer we foster an environment that focuses upon the positive, the standards and principles that foster a superior performance in combat.
Any conduct that is prejudicial to that is what must be dealt with no matter the cause, source, or motive.
In the past I said I object to the term "Racial Justice" as I believe in just plain ol' Justice.....which covers us all. Just as I object to "Black Lives Matter" as I believe "All Lives Matter" which again includes us all.
That is why I challenge so much of what is going on today.....as the very language used is creating division instead of what the stated goal is supposed to be.
Requiring me to sit through a series of classes and briefings where I am told I am a Racist based upon my skin color seems awfully wrong to me.
That is not going to make me want to embrace those teachings.
We can set out. our Principles and Standards without getting into hyphens and identifies.......by doing that I suggest we can focus upon what we really need to be doing.
Here is what my Army teaches every Soldier.....what else do we need to teach that is not covered in these few simple sentences?
A single Identity is used....."Soldier".
https://www.army.mil/values/index.html
That is where you and I see it differently I am thinking.
I care not about how one "identifies" but I do care about their conduct.....and prefer we foster an environment that focuses upon the positive, the standards and principles that foster a superior performance in combat.
Any conduct that is prejudicial to that is what must be dealt with no matter the cause, source, or motive.
In the past I said I object to the term "Racial Justice" as I believe in just plain ol' Justice.....which covers us all. Just as I object to "Black Lives Matter" as I believe "All Lives Matter" which again includes us all.
That is why I challenge so much of what is going on today.....as the very language used is creating division instead of what the stated goal is supposed to be.
Requiring me to sit through a series of classes and briefings where I am told I am a Racist based upon my skin color seems awfully wrong to me.
That is not going to make me want to embrace those teachings.
We can set out. our Principles and Standards without getting into hyphens and identifies.......by doing that I suggest we can focus upon what we really need to be doing.
Here is what my Army teaches every Soldier.....what else do we need to teach that is not covered in these few simple sentences?
A single Identity is used....."Soldier".
https://www.army.mil/values/index.html
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Toad....to me it is about actions not identities.
That is where you and I see it differently I am thinking.
I care not about how one "identifies" but I do care about their conduct.....and prefer we foster an environment that focuses upon the positive, the standards and principles that foster a superior performance in combat.
Any conduct that is prejudicial to that is what must be dealt with no matter the cause, source, or motive.
In the past I said I object to the term "Racial Justice" as I believe in just plain ol' Justice.....which covers us all. Just as I object to "Black Lives Matter" as I believe "All Lives Matter" which again includes us all.
That is why I challenge so much of what is going on today.....as the very language used is creating division instead of what the stated goal is supposed to be.
Requiring me to sit through a series of classes and briefings where I am told I am a Racist based upon my skin color seems awfully wrong to me.
That is not going to make me want to embrace those teachings.
We can set out. our Principles and Standards without getting into hyphens and identifies.......by doing that I suggest we can focus upon what we really need to be doing.
Here is what my Army teaches every Soldier.....what else do we need to teach that is not covered in these few simple sentences?
A single Identity is used....."Soldier".
https://www.army.mil/values/index.html
That is where you and I see it differently I am thinking.
I care not about how one "identifies" but I do care about their conduct.....and prefer we foster an environment that focuses upon the positive, the standards and principles that foster a superior performance in combat.
Any conduct that is prejudicial to that is what must be dealt with no matter the cause, source, or motive.
In the past I said I object to the term "Racial Justice" as I believe in just plain ol' Justice.....which covers us all. Just as I object to "Black Lives Matter" as I believe "All Lives Matter" which again includes us all.
That is why I challenge so much of what is going on today.....as the very language used is creating division instead of what the stated goal is supposed to be.
Requiring me to sit through a series of classes and briefings where I am told I am a Racist based upon my skin color seems awfully wrong to me.
That is not going to make me want to embrace those teachings.
We can set out. our Principles and Standards without getting into hyphens and identifies.......by doing that I suggest we can focus upon what we really need to be doing.
Here is what my Army teaches every Soldier.....what else do we need to teach that is not covered in these few simple sentences?
A single Identity is used....."Soldier".
https://www.army.mil/values/index.html
All lives do matter, but anyone who can say with a straight face that the ethnic minorities in both the USA and the UK get the same treatment is deluded, and that goes for the military as well.
It’s one thing to have someone say your an asshole because they don’t like you. Fair enough. It’s quite another to have someone say I don’t like that n*****. It now has nothing to do with you as a person but you as an identity.
So…you as an Officer or NCO become aware of such conduct….do you take immediate and appropriate action to correct the problem?
Your own conduct sets the example and should ensure misconduct gets dealt with.
This kind of misconduct does not go on in a vacuum and there should be zero tolerance for it.
If the accusation that Racism is systemic within your individual military then that tells me there has been a gross failure of leadership by all ranks and within the ranks.
Is that the situation extant in both the British and American Militaries?
I think not!
Are there some that fail to live up to the expected Standard….sure!
Is it rampant and a crisis….no.
Your own conduct sets the example and should ensure misconduct gets dealt with.
This kind of misconduct does not go on in a vacuum and there should be zero tolerance for it.
If the accusation that Racism is systemic within your individual military then that tells me there has been a gross failure of leadership by all ranks and within the ranks.
Is that the situation extant in both the British and American Militaries?
I think not!
Are there some that fail to live up to the expected Standard….sure!
Is it rampant and a crisis….no.
Last edited by SASless; 22nd Jun 2021 at 04:10. Reason: Correcting auto-correct
"All lives do matter, but anyone who can say with a straight face that the ethnic minorities in both the USA and the UK get the same treatment is deluded, and that goes for the military as well."
I'll tell you with a straight face that in the UK ethnic minorities get the same treatment. Don't take my word for it, there are plenty of studies and statistics that will tell you that with the exception of those of Afro Carribbean heritage, educational outcomes and later life earning figures for ethnic minorities outstrip thier white counterparts. That alone should tell you that skin colour plays no role in people's ability to succeed or otherwise in the UK. There are certainly inequalities, but they fall along socio-economic lines, not racial.
I have lived all over the world, and the UK is probably the most accepting place I have ever come across. In the RAF specifically, I have never met anyone who could care less about what colour someone is. It has been a very long time since anyone, other than the current crop of 'social justice warriors', generalised about people based purely on their skin colour.
I'll tell you with a straight face that in the UK ethnic minorities get the same treatment. Don't take my word for it, there are plenty of studies and statistics that will tell you that with the exception of those of Afro Carribbean heritage, educational outcomes and later life earning figures for ethnic minorities outstrip thier white counterparts. That alone should tell you that skin colour plays no role in people's ability to succeed or otherwise in the UK. There are certainly inequalities, but they fall along socio-economic lines, not racial.
I have lived all over the world, and the UK is probably the most accepting place I have ever come across. In the RAF specifically, I have never met anyone who could care less about what colour someone is. It has been a very long time since anyone, other than the current crop of 'social justice warriors', generalised about people based purely on their skin colour.
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When I was introduced to a guy in Germany I was told his name was xyz.. Unknown to me XYZ was a nickname as he was black and there was an American TV series running at the same time staring a black chap called XYZ... Several months went by and one day he said you know my name is ABC, well I didn't, being niave at the time I had naturally assumed XYZ was his name and I said sorry to my friend, but by then the name had got so ingrained into my mind I still slipped up when talking to him, though I tried... If that makes sense.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Nicknames are applied based on many reasons - including TV programmes.
There was a officer cadet intake where some of the cadets were given nicknames based on the names of the firemen in Trumpton (kids programme), namely Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble and Grub.
Dibble's stuck and that's still how is he named and called over 40 years later. Similarly "Gorky" Park was nicknamed after the book and still is known by that name - (in fact I had to sit here for a couple of minutes trying to remember their real first names).
There was a officer cadet intake where some of the cadets were given nicknames based on the names of the firemen in Trumpton (kids programme), namely Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble and Grub.
Dibble's stuck and that's still how is he named and called over 40 years later. Similarly "Gorky" Park was nicknamed after the book and still is known by that name - (in fact I had to sit here for a couple of minutes trying to remember their real first names).
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When I joined up I had a broad Cumbrian accent and the peasants from down south thought I was Welsh so nicknamed me Taff.. stranger things in life have happened, but when I then did my training at St Athan, the local commando's wouldn't touch an English boy, but as a Taff... I filled my erm Welsh boots.....
