Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Scottish Independence vs Military assets

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Scottish Independence vs Military assets

Old 12th May 2021, 22:58
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 26,255
Received 47 Likes on 24 Posts
Still cannot see the figures adding up, and how is signing up for the EU independent, first off they would need to hand back their fishing grounds, plus the Orkneys have said they wouldn’t want to be part of an independent Scotland so that would be the major oil fields gone, plus there is the decommissioning bill to be paid
NutLoose is offline  
Old 13th May 2021, 08:24
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 5,423
Received 22 Likes on 12 Posts
"As you can see, applying for and becoming a member is not a short term issue. "

Scotland will argue, with some justification, that they were members of the EU, that they were dragged out of the EU against their wishes and that their current structures of Govt and legislation conform to EU standards to end 2019 and the longer they're left out in the cold the more they'll start to diverge

The EU doesn't have to deal with applicants in the order they joined the line
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 13th May 2021, 08:27
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 5,423
Received 22 Likes on 12 Posts
" the SSNs could, I suppose, go back to Guz "

This was discussed a lot last time round - IIRC the question was would you try and replicate the current facilities or could you get away with something less massive. There was talk of opening a new facility at Falmouth but it would take forever to get permissions and build something. The obvious answer is to base them out of the USA.
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 13th May 2021, 08:42
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: God's Country
Posts: 138
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"As you can see, applying for and becoming a member is not a short term issue. "

Scotland will argue, with some justification, that they were members of the EU, that they were dragged out of the EU against their wishes and that their current structures of Govt and legislation conform to EU standards to end 2019 and the longer they're left out in the cold the more they'll start to diverge

The EU doesn't have to deal with applicants in the order they joined the line
When was Scotland a member of the EU? Correct, the EU does not have to deal with applicants in order, I didn't state they would. So how long is it going to take? The Scottish people deserve a timetable in the event of IScot?
The Nip is offline  
Old 13th May 2021, 09:40
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: W. Scotland
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by The Nip View Post
When was Scotland a member of the EU?
Equally, when was the UK, sans Scotland, ever a member? Might Brussels want to renegotiate the treaty with such a different entity?

Scotland punches well above its weight in quite important areas, such as providing 25% of the UK's renewable energy, where it is a world leader. It exports, southwards, 28% of its energy generation, and rising. That fine supply and demand balancing act is out of kilter if Scotland is no longer an internal supplier. Nicola and her predecessors aren't daft, and this goes a long way to offsetting the loss of oil revenue. London goes on about that constantly, but the long term planning and implementation has been there for many years. A relatively minor but important example. What the RUK hear is a very one-sided argument.


dervish is offline  
Old 13th May 2021, 09:56
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 320
Received 9 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"As you can see, applying for and becoming a member is not a short term issue. "

Scotland will argue, with some made up justification, that they were members of the EU, that they were dragged out of the EU against their wishes and that their current structures of Govt and legislation conform to EU standards to end 2019 and the longer they're left out in the cold the more they'll start to diverge

The EU doesn't have to deal with applicants in the order they joined the line
Are foreign relations within the competence of the Scottish Parliament? No.
Was "Scotland" a member of the EU? No.
Within Scotland in the 2016 referendum was there a majority of votes cast to remain? Yes
Within Scotland in the recent parliamentary elections, was there a majority of votes cast for pro-independence parties? No.

Can't have it both ways.

Not_a_boffin is offline  
Old 13th May 2021, 14:35
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Scotland
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Can't have it both ways.
I have yet to meet a political entity of any persuasion, that does not seek to "have it both ways", whenever it suits,


Richard Dangle is offline  
Old 13th May 2021, 15:33
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: North of Hadrians Wall
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin View Post
Are foreign relations within the competence of the Scottish Parliament? No.
Was "Scotland" a member of the EU? No.
Within Scotland in the 2016 referendum was there a majority of votes cast to remain? Yes
Within Scotland in the recent parliamentary elections, was there a majority of votes cast for pro-independence parties? No.

Can't have it both ways.
Turnout at the last election was high at 63%, but the last Indyref was 85%. That's a lot of votes which could go either way.
Prior to last time polling for 'Yes' started below 30% and ended with a frighteningly close 45/55. This time it appears the starting base is only just under 50%.

It's stretching it a bit to assume that all SNP supporters want independence or that only SNP supporters want independence. Reality it is more nuanced than that.

People who persist with this 'Scotland's too wee, too stupid and too fickle' line of attack are more likely to be doing the SNPs job for them.


OilCan is offline  
Old 13th May 2021, 16:53
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: inv
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by dervish View Post
Equally, when was the UK, sans Scotland, ever a member? Might Brussels want to renegotiate the treaty with such a different entity?

Scotland punches well above its weight in quite important areas, such as providing 25% of the UK's renewable energy, where it is a world leader. It exports, southwards, 28% of its energy generation, and rising. That fine supply and demand balancing act is out of kilter if Scotland is no longer an internal supplier. Nicola and her predecessors aren't daft, and this goes a long way to offsetting the loss of oil revenue. London goes on about that constantly, but the long term planning and implementation has been there for many years. A relatively minor but important example. What the RUK hear is a very one-sided argument.

yet here in the Highlands we pay the highest prices for electricity despite producing and exporting south large amounts. yet prices are set in London.
scr1 is offline  
Old 13th May 2021, 17:39
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 5,423
Received 22 Likes on 12 Posts
"Can't have it both ways."

well Boffin that absolutely proves you're not a politician.. ( I hasten to add I never thought for a minute that you were!)

Those of us who don't want Scotland to leave can argue all we like but I have a nasty feeling that this time the SNP will get their Referendum and that they will win it. The current Govt in London is far less popular than even Cameron's. The PM is absolute poison N of the border - the Scots Tories asked him to stay away during the latest election campaign
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 14th May 2021, 08:53
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Scottish Independance

How about this for 'a cunning plan'.

Have a referendum in England on Scottish Independance with English only voters.

The English being totally fed upwith subsidising the Scots and getting nothing but abuse back in return would overwhelmingly vote to ' let the Scots go'.
( not putting the clocks back in Autumn giving lighter nights in the winter would be a big vote puller)

The Scots, because they disagree with everything the English want would then contrarily vote to remain!

Problem solved!!
mahogany bob is offline  
Old 14th May 2021, 09:12
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: The Beloved Province
Age: 61
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
An ‘English only’ referendum, Mahogany Bob! Nothing particularly chauvinistic in that at all, eh?!?

And there was me thinking for all these years that I had been living in the ‘United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland’; where Great Britain comprised England, Scotland and Wales! And my taxes were paid to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs for the greater good of all of the UK!!! Apparently not!!

Sometimes I despair!!!
OJ 72 is offline  
Old 14th May 2021, 10:23
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 5,423
Received 22 Likes on 12 Posts
The idea of an earlier "indicative vote" would be interesting - if 95% of the English decided they wanted the Scots to stay tit might actually help. The problem is if 51% say b***** off it would lead to a landslide or, even worse, what happens then if Scotland doesn't stay?

I don't think anyone is silly enough to give England a voice on N Ireland..
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 14th May 2021, 15:35
  #74 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 209
Received 7 Likes on 3 Posts
It appears the political aspects have hijacked the thread...I know when to choose my battles!

Here goes then. Scottish independence is inevitable in my opinion, a long as the SNP are in charge. They have no interest whatsoever in the will of the Scottish people, unless that will is to leave the UK. If they force a referendum, and I believe they will, and the result is to 'Stay', does anyone honestly believe Sturgeon will repect that vote? Of course she will not - she is hellbent on independence, and will find a reason in a few years to force another vote, and another ad infinitum, until she gets a 'Leave' result. Once that happens, will she continue to have referendums every few years in case Scots have changed their minds and wish to rejoin the UK...of course not.

Scotland has beautiful countryside and lovely people. But my experience of Scottish towns is that they are run-down, tired, and getting worse. The rate of decline is only being slowed by the cash coming from south of the border. The sensible economic argument to leave does not exist, but the SNP will lie about that. This is purely about Nationalism, and that is why I despise Sturgeon so much, she is a vile excuse for a Scot, who will not be honest with 'her' people. She needs to be honest and say what is obvious to most of us - she wants independence for the sake of it, and so she can rule her own country. She needs to say the people will suffer, the economy will tank ,and jobs will be lost by the thousands, but they will be 'free'. I would at least respect the honesty, but she does not have an ounce of integrity - a truly disgusting individual.

Scotland is being supported by the UK - quite rightly as it is part of it. However, when they choose to leave, they must leave. Not a single penny for their shipyards, bases, airports, NHS, welfare state (a huge drain on Westminster) etc etc. Let Sturgeon talk her way out when Scottish companies are losing contracts and deals in their droves.

I am certain that the English would vote for Scotland to leave, in fact in a landslide. I would love nothing more than to watch the SNP sink under the reality of their own lies...and then extend the Olive branch and graciously allow Scotland to return as the old friends that they once were.

Not Sturgeon though. She would be banished to Rockall, which she can have for free.
Baldeep Inminj is offline  
Old 14th May 2021, 16:23
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 5,423
Received 22 Likes on 12 Posts
Actually the repeated calls for referendums year after year was a PQ tactic in Canada - which never really worked...................
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 14th May 2021, 17:58
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Leicester
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I feel for the Scots from the ideological perspective but I suspect the next indyref will fail because Sturgeon, much like Salmond, simply can't answer the basic economic questions. There's only so much shortbread you can shift...

Either way, we can expect a warm welcome North of the wall!

DaveJ75 is offline  
Old 14th May 2021, 21:39
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just found this thread and read it expecting the usual amount of Jingoistic bolleaux. I wasn't disappointed, though to be fair there are some excellent and balanced contributions.

In terms of defence, where would a newly independent rUK/England mount its QRA from? At a guess I'd say the sensible option would be some sort of lease operation for Lossie/Kinloss/Leauchars. Similarly for the nukes. Much as I consider them a waste of money, I'd settle for rUK/England to lease Coulport/Faslane to maintiain the subs and warheads if rUK/England wishes to spend the money required to remain part of the big boys club.

In terms of our notional sare of the national debt, fine, it's around 8% by a population basis, so I'm happy to take that on. A year's revenue from oil & gas production will soon sort it out. Failing that, we'll secure borrowing to pay it on our 8% share of the Bank of England's gold bullion reserves.

To conclude, though, a thought. Scotland's been in a Union with England since 1707. If, after just over 300 years, Scotland's economy is such a basket case, then that doesn't say much for how healthy that 300 year union has been for at least one of the partners. At least, Scotland's economy judged by UK accounting standards.

Finally, if Scotland is such a drain on England, then why not sort the issue once and for all and simply dissolve the Act of Union? Imagine how rich rUK/England would be without all those pesky Scots to subsidise and support.
alwayslookingup is offline  
Old 14th May 2021, 22:04
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: British Isles
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It intrigues me that the SNP want on the one hand to retain the Queen as head of state but on the other hand want to sign international treaties and have their own armed forces.

If the Queen is in charge then the UK will be responsible for foreign affairs and defence as is the case with the Crown Dependencies. That means no armed forces flying the Saltire and no international treaties like union with the EU.

Have these points been addressed?
Spartacan is offline  
Old 14th May 2021, 22:08
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NEW YORK
Posts: 1,351
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by alwayslookingup View Post
Just found this thread and read it expecting the usual amount of Jingoistic bolleaux. I wasn't disappointed, though to be fair there are some excellent and balanced contributions.

In terms of defence, where would a newly independent rUK/England mount its QRA from? At a guess I'd say the sensible option would be some sort of lease operation for Lossie/Kinloss/Leauchars. Similarly for the nukes. Much as I consider them a waste of money, I'd settle for rUK/England to lease Coulport/Faslane to maintiain the subs and warheads if rUK/England wishes to spend the money required to remain part of the big boys club.

In terms of our notional sare of the national debt, fine, it's around 8% by a population basis, so I'm happy to take that on. A year's revenue from oil & gas production will soon sort it out. Failing that, we'll secure borrowing to pay it on our 8% share of the Bank of England's gold bullion reserves.

To conclude, though, a thought. Scotland's been in a Union with England since 1707. If, after just over 300 years, Scotland's economy is such a basket case, then that doesn't say much for how healthy that 300 year union has been for at least one of the partners. At least, Scotland's economy judged by UK accounting standards.

Finally, if Scotland is such a drain on England, then why not sort the issue once and for all and simply dissolve the Act of Union? Imagine how rich rUK/England would be without all those pesky Scots to subsidise and support.
That last thought is critical imho, unions are voluntary and can dissolve unless the various partners can reach acceptable accords.
The US was not able to do this and consequently had a traumatic civil war. Czechoslovakia by contrast achieved an amicable 'velvet divorce'.
Not sure where things stand in the England/Scotland discussion, but I see no indications that any serious discussions such as took place in Czechoslovakia before the split are happening, just posturing.
etudiant is offline  
Old 14th May 2021, 22:16
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
That last thought is critical imho, unions are voluntary and can dissolve unless the various partners can reach acceptable accords.
The US was not able to do this and consequently had a traumatic civil war. Czechoslovakia by contrast achieved an amicable 'velvet divorce'.
Not sure where things stand in the England/Scotland discussion, but I see no indications that any serious discussions such as took place in Czechoslovakia before the split are happening, just posturing.
There is plenty of will and desire on behalf of the Scottish Government to discuss the terms and holding of a binding and legal Referendum. Unfortunately, a certain PM has taken it upon himself to die in a ditch before agreeing to it. Interestingly, the Good Friday Agreement provides for a Referendum on the reunification of Ireland. Even more interestingly, if such a poll is held and the answer is No, the GFA provides that it can be revisited, but not for at least 7 years. So, it's good enough for one part of the United Kingdom, but evidently not for all parts of the United Kingdom.
alwayslookingup is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.