Is Ukraine about to have a war?
I think there may be some sort of sim. training in western-style aircraft systems and tactics, rather than any supply of actual aircraft in the short term. Read some right old tosh in this Guardian article.
Not that Russia would enjoy the future ............ surely a global pariah, decreased market for its oil and gas, decreased export market for arms, unwilling to find business partners because of lack of trust, weakened militarily, weakened morally [not sure if that is possible] and surrounded [they infer] by potential enemies busy augmenting their own forces.
Looks like a Pyrrhic victory to me, should it happen.
Looks like a Pyrrhic victory to me, should it happen.
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Presumably the people being trained (potentially) to fly these aircraft will already be pilots.
So if you gave a Mig29 pilot an F16, half hour of instruction and said "Off you go then" could they fly it?
That's basically what we did to the Poles in WW2 and they turned out alright.
So if you gave a Mig29 pilot an F16, half hour of instruction and said "Off you go then" could they fly it?
That's basically what we did to the Poles in WW2 and they turned out alright.
90% of the really critical training for existing pilots will be on the systems. It'll be mostly classroom and a bit of SIM work. The need for flying training for guys that have already got combat experience flying SU-27's is likely minimal. Chances are these Ukrainian pilots have more real combat and tactical experience than any of our people have.
How hard can it be to take someone from being combat ready flying an SU-27 to being combat ready flying an Tornado, or much better, a Typhoon?
How hard can it be to take someone from being combat ready flying an SU-27 to being combat ready flying an Tornado, or much better, a Typhoon?
90% of the really critical training for existing pilots will be on the systems. It'll be mostly classroom and a bit of SIM work. The need for flying training for guys that have already got combat experience flying SU-27's is likely minimal. Chances are these Ukrainian pilots have more real combat and tactical experience than any of our people have.
How hard can it be to take someone from being combat ready flying an SU-27 to being combat ready flying an Tornado, or much better, a Typhoon?
How hard can it be to take someone from being combat ready flying an SU-27 to being combat ready flying an Tornado, or much better, a Typhoon?
Boris Johnson is saying UK should send EF-2000
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The only realistic potential provider of significant aviation help is USA.
There are two hopes, and one of them is Bob, and the other No.
Ukr will not get useful contributions from NATO, however charismatic their leader is.
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"It is true that the Typhoon is a four-nation plane and that we require the approval of allies for export. But there is no reason to think that Germany or others should oppose our decision – these are UK planes."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...olitics-latest
All this chat about Jags, Tonkas is a pointless, it won't happen. They will never fly again. Hawk T1 maybe, but what use would they be? Typhoon Tranche 1 maybe, but in 6,9,12 months, who knows. And what about tech support for them? Su25 and Mig 29's are what they need and will be able to operate tomorrow, plus Mi8, Mi 25, everything they are currently using and can support.
Where can they find these? Former Soviet Republics, Africa. Throw a few hundred million dollars in the right places now, and I mean tomorrow morning, and go and collect them.
Where can they find these? Former Soviet Republics, Africa. Throw a few hundred million dollars in the right places now, and I mean tomorrow morning, and go and collect them.
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All this chat about Jags, Tonkas is a pointless, it won't happen. They will never fly again. Hawk T1 maybe, but what use would they be? Typhoon Tranche 1 maybe, but in 6,9,12 months, who knows. And what about tech support for them? Su25 and Mig 29's are what they need and will be able to operate tomorrow, plus Mi8, Mi 25, everything they are currently using and can support.
Where can they find these? Former Soviet Republics, Africa. Throw a few hundred million dollars in the right places now, and I mean tomorrow morning, and go and collect them.
Where can they find these? Former Soviet Republics, Africa. Throw a few hundred million dollars in the right places now, and I mean tomorrow morning, and go and collect them.
The only other thing I could see is the U.K. chipping in with the likes of Holland to buy / release their F16 and possibly training crews in dissimilar combat training against our European partners. I read an article years ago re F15’s visiting Ukraine and they were careful to avoid showing them nato combat tactics, I take it that will now be expanded upon.
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The GR1's are basically shells with only the bare minimum hyd / elec systems that can be powered up...
The GR1's that arrived from Cranwell would be in better condition overall, but they stopped running / taxiing when a little engine problem arose...followed by the not so little matter of the costs to rectify it.
The GR3's, well maybe, and it's a very big maybe, you could possibly get two just about airworthy, and even then only after extensive and costly work.
You can't blame Zelensky for trying and asking, and Sunak's response was only to be expected, but, the reality must be the UK can't supply the airframes because we don't have them available.
What exactly do the experts think that Ukraine can do with new fighter jets ? According to the RUSI reports Russian was very effective at shooting down Ukrainian aircraft in the early part of the war. Much more so than was ever initially reported. Now in the occupied regions Russia also has a very good integrated air defence system. So Ukraine are not going to be able to operate these jets very effectively are they. ? What kind of role is envisaged for them ? Maybe just a deterrent for the Russian AF not to operate ? I fear the first shoot down of a 'modern Western jet ( like the inevitable first tank kill ) is going to be a big propaganda coup for the Russians.
Hutch
Hutch
Attack targets deeper in Russia
What exactly do the experts think that Ukraine can do with new fighter jets ? According to the RUSI reports Russian was very effective at shooting down Ukrainian aircraft in the early part of the war. Much more so than was ever initially reported. Now in the occupied regions Russia also has a very good integrated air defence system. So Ukraine are not going to be able to operate these jets very effectively are they. ? What kind of role is envisaged for them ? Maybe just a deterrent for the Russian AF not to operate ? I fear the first shoot down of a 'modern Western jet ( like the inevitable first tank kill ) is going to be a big propaganda coup for the Russians.
Hutch
Hutch
Maybe, even attack any countries allied to the Russian that border Ukraine.
What exactly do the experts think that Ukraine can do with new fighter jets ? According to the RUSI reports Russian was very effective at shooting down Ukrainian aircraft in the early part of the war. Much more so than was ever initially reported. Now in the occupied regions Russia also has a very good integrated air defence system. So Ukraine are not going to be able to operate these jets very effectively are they. ? What kind of role is envisaged for them ? Maybe just a deterrent for the Russian AF not to operate ? I fear the first shoot down of a 'modern Western jet ( like the inevitable first tank kill ) is going to be a big propaganda coup for the Russians.
Hutch
Hutch
Jets aren't going to turn the tide of the war, sending jets will sadly mean more dead Ukr pilots.
The Russians are still operating effective IADS at the FLOT and in the occupied areas that is still claiming Ukr aviation to this day. A token handful of western FJs are not going to enable the Ukr to run proper SEAD missions.
What we should be focusing on is sending things that make a difference now.....manpads, tube and mlrs arty, armoured vehicles and most importantly ammunition.
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Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Elon stepping in to help Putin again.
Not meant to be weaponised? They’ve signed now signed numerous contracts with the DoD to provide a LEO bespoke satellite network and comms as well as to design and launch bespoke designed satellites.
SpaceX's president & CEO says Starlink was "never never meant to be weaponized" and "Ukrainians have leveraged it in ways that were unintentional and not part of any agreement." So now the company has limited the Ukrainian military's use of Starlink.
https://t.co/ixtYVwVYa1
https://t.co/VoLlD44Ci1
https://www.spacex.com/starshield/
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-fire-exercise
Not meant to be weaponised? They’ve signed now signed numerous contracts with the DoD to provide a LEO bespoke satellite network and comms as well as to design and launch bespoke designed satellites.
SpaceX's president & CEO says Starlink was "never never meant to be weaponized" and "Ukrainians have leveraged it in ways that were unintentional and not part of any agreement." So now the company has limited the Ukrainian military's use of Starlink.
https://t.co/ixtYVwVYa1
https://t.co/VoLlD44Ci1
https://www.spacex.com/starshield/
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-fire-exercise
Last edited by ORAC; 9th Feb 2023 at 09:18.
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This is what a lot of the armchair quarterbacks here are missing IMO.
Jets aren't going to turn the tide of the war, sending jets will sadly mean more dead Ukr pilots.
The Russians are still operating effective IADS at the FLOT and in the occupied areas that is still claiming Ukr aviation to this day. A token handful of western FJs are not going to enable the Ukr to run proper SEAD missions.
What we should be focusing on is sending things that make a difference now.....manpads, tube and mlrs arty, armoured vehicles and most importantly ammunition.
Jets aren't going to turn the tide of the war, sending jets will sadly mean more dead Ukr pilots.
The Russians are still operating effective IADS at the FLOT and in the occupied areas that is still claiming Ukr aviation to this day. A token handful of western FJs are not going to enable the Ukr to run proper SEAD missions.
What we should be focusing on is sending things that make a difference now.....manpads, tube and mlrs arty, armoured vehicles and most importantly ammunition.
What is Zelenskyy actually asking for? He can't be that ill advised that he believes the UK would be in any position to defend itself air power wise should it have to face alone the invasion his own country faced and is facing. The UK cant afford to give him a couple of pence when it comes to asking for fighter aircraft, neither can the rest of Europe. Best he hops on a plane and heads to the USA because that is the only place capable of providing any help. The idea of the modern UK forces providing free aircraft for anyone is laughable.
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As other have said, the only way any of the Jags at Cosford will get airborne again would be if they were attached with a sling to a crane.
The GR1's are basically shells with only the bare minimum hyd / elec systems that can be powered up...
The GR1's that arrived from Cranwell would be in better condition overall, but they stopped running / taxiing when a little engine problem arose...followed by the not so little matter of the costs to rectify it.
The GR3's, well maybe, and it's a very big maybe, you could possibly get two just about airworthy, and even then only after extensive and costly work.
You can't blame Zelensky for trying and asking, and Sunak's response was only to be expected, but, the reality must be the UK can't supply the airframes because we don't have them available.
The GR1's are basically shells with only the bare minimum hyd / elec systems that can be powered up...
The GR1's that arrived from Cranwell would be in better condition overall, but they stopped running / taxiing when a little engine problem arose...followed by the not so little matter of the costs to rectify it.
The GR3's, well maybe, and it's a very big maybe, you could possibly get two just about airworthy, and even then only after extensive and costly work.
You can't blame Zelensky for trying and asking, and Sunak's response was only to be expected, but, the reality must be the UK can't supply the airframes because we don't have them available.
There's always the homeless Vulcan in Doncaster