Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Is Ukraine about to have a war?

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Is Ukraine about to have a war?

Old 8th Feb 2023, 21:55
  #14421 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Age: 56
Posts: 230
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think there may be some sort of sim. training in western-style aircraft systems and tactics, rather than any supply of actual aircraft in the short term. Read some right old tosh in this Guardian article.
Flugplatz is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2023, 22:00
  #14422 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SAUDI
Posts: 462
Received 12 Likes on 8 Posts
Originally Posted by langleybaston
Not that Russia would enjoy the future ............ surely a global pariah, decreased market for its oil and gas, decreased export market for arms, unwilling to find business partners because of lack of trust, weakened militarily, weakened morally [not sure if that is possible] and surrounded [they infer] by potential enemies busy augmenting their own forces.
Looks like a Pyrrhic victory to me, should it happen.
Perhaps some merit in what you say but the capitalist might will win out. Look what happened after the world wars. Not having an economical viable (that once was) country is not good for world economics. How many companies, factories, restarted in western countries with the shutdown of China due Covid. Or did we just do without in the belief it would all come out in the wash and be ok in the long run. Do we still buy oil off, if not totally despot just a little bit despot, countries?
finestkind is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2023, 22:04
  #14423 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes on 10 Posts
Presumably the people being trained (potentially) to fly these aircraft will already be pilots.
So if you gave a Mig29 pilot an F16, half hour of instruction and said "Off you go then" could they fly it?
That's basically what we did to the Poles in WW2 and they turned out alright.
uxb99 is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2023, 22:15
  #14424 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2022
Location: SW England
Age: 72
Posts: 251
Received 78 Likes on 42 Posts
90% of the really critical training for existing pilots will be on the systems. It'll be mostly classroom and a bit of SIM work. The need for flying training for guys that have already got combat experience flying SU-27's is likely minimal. Chances are these Ukrainian pilots have more real combat and tactical experience than any of our people have.

How hard can it be to take someone from being combat ready flying an SU-27 to being combat ready flying an Tornado, or much better, a Typhoon?

_Agrajag_ is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2023, 22:30
  #14425 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Rhone-Alpes
Posts: 1,142
Received 220 Likes on 126 Posts
Originally Posted by _Agrajag_
90% of the really critical training for existing pilots will be on the systems. It'll be mostly classroom and a bit of SIM work. The need for flying training for guys that have already got combat experience flying SU-27's is likely minimal. Chances are these Ukrainian pilots have more real combat and tactical experience than any of our people have.

How hard can it be to take someone from being combat ready flying an SU-27 to being combat ready flying an Tornado, or much better, a Typhoon?
For current home defence, cost and desire to keep secrets (if shot down ) I would guess there is zero chance of either Typhoon or F 35 being considered for Ukraine.
Tartiflette Fan is online now  
Old 8th Feb 2023, 22:59
  #14426 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: aus
Posts: 1,264
Likes: 0
Received 91 Likes on 59 Posts
Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
For current home defence, cost and desire to keep secrets (if shot down ) I would guess there is zero chance of either Typhoon or F 35 being considered for Ukraine.
No EF-2000 tranche 1 block 5 are being considered - advantages, no government can say no. F-35 would not be sent in a month of sundays

Boris Johnson is saying UK should send EF-2000
rattman is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2023, 22:59
  #14427 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 350/3 Compton
Age: 76
Posts: 768
Received 345 Likes on 81 Posts
Two’s up!
Mogwi is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 8th Feb 2023, 23:36
  #14428 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 3,195
Received 402 Likes on 190 Posts
Originally Posted by rattman
No EF-2000 tranche 1 block 5 are being considered - advantages, no government can say no. F-35 would not be sent in a month of sundays

Boris Johnson is saying UK should send EF-2000
Is nobody going to say sending "planes" to Ukr is total bollocks? Is the government so ill-informed / disinterested that they are unaware the cupboard is bare?

The only realistic potential provider of significant aviation help is USA.

There are two hopes, and one of them is Bob, and the other No.

Ukr will not get useful contributions from NATO, however charismatic their leader is.

langleybaston is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 8th Feb 2023, 23:38
  #14429 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Rhone-Alpes
Posts: 1,142
Received 220 Likes on 126 Posts
Originally Posted by rattman
No EF-2000 tranche 1 block 5 are being considered - advantages, no government can say no. F-35 would not be sent in a month of sundays

Boris Johnson is saying UK should send EF-2000
Your comment "advantages, no government can say no." doesn't accord with the words of that well-known speaker of truth - BoJo himself.

"It is true that the Typhoon is a four-nation plane and that we require the approval of allies for export. But there is no reason to think that Germany or others should oppose our decision – these are UK planes."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...olitics-latest
Tartiflette Fan is online now  
Old 8th Feb 2023, 23:51
  #14430 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2022
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
All this chat about Jags, Tonkas is a pointless, it won't happen. They will never fly again. Hawk T1 maybe, but what use would they be? Typhoon Tranche 1 maybe, but in 6,9,12 months, who knows. And what about tech support for them? Su25 and Mig 29's are what they need and will be able to operate tomorrow, plus Mi8, Mi 25, everything they are currently using and can support.
Where can they find these? Former Soviet Republics, Africa. Throw a few hundred million dollars in the right places now, and I mean tomorrow morning, and go and collect them.
Muddy Paws is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 9th Feb 2023, 01:38
  #14431 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,095
Received 2,431 Likes on 1,014 Posts
Originally Posted by Muddy Paws
All this chat about Jags, Tonkas is a pointless, it won't happen. They will never fly again. Hawk T1 maybe, but what use would they be? Typhoon Tranche 1 maybe, but in 6,9,12 months, who knows. And what about tech support for them? Su25 and Mig 29's are what they need and will be able to operate tomorrow, plus Mi8, Mi 25, everything they are currently using and can support.
Where can they find these? Former Soviet Republics, Africa. Throw a few hundred million dollars in the right places now, and I mean tomorrow morning, and go and collect them.
The only reason I mentioned the Hawk T1 was to use it as a trainer, the Ukrainians operate L39’s as trainers and they are possibly weapons capable it would allow them to use them ( I believe, they were looking at replacing them in 2021 with turboprops)

The only other thing I could see is the U.K. chipping in with the likes of Holland to buy / release their F16 and possibly training crews in dissimilar combat training against our European partners. I read an article years ago re F15’s visiting Ukraine and they were careful to avoid showing them nato combat tactics, I take it that will now be expanded upon.
NutLoose is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2023, 05:32
  #14432 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 1,364
Received 68 Likes on 47 Posts
Originally Posted by dctyke
I don’t think we have any “war reserve” fast jets these days. Nearest thing would be the Jaguar training airframes at Cosford.
As other have said, the only way any of the Jags at Cosford will get airborne again would be if they were attached with a sling to a crane.

The GR1's are basically shells with only the bare minimum hyd / elec systems that can be powered up...

The GR1's that arrived from Cranwell would be in better condition overall, but they stopped running / taxiing when a little engine problem arose...followed by the not so little matter of the costs to rectify it.

The GR3's, well maybe, and it's a very big maybe, you could possibly get two just about airworthy, and even then only after extensive and costly work.

You can't blame Zelensky for trying and asking, and Sunak's response was only to be expected, but, the reality must be the UK can't supply the airframes because we don't have them available.
Krystal n chips is online now  
Old 9th Feb 2023, 06:43
  #14433 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Amersham
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
What exactly do the experts think that Ukraine can do with new fighter jets ? According to the RUSI reports Russian was very effective at shooting down Ukrainian aircraft in the early part of the war. Much more so than was ever initially reported. Now in the occupied regions Russia also has a very good integrated air defence system. So Ukraine are not going to be able to operate these jets very effectively are they. ? What kind of role is envisaged for them ? Maybe just a deterrent for the Russian AF not to operate ? I fear the first shoot down of a 'modern Western jet ( like the inevitable first tank kill ) is going to be a big propaganda coup for the Russians.

Hutch
HUTCHP is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2023, 07:06
  #14434 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: England
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Attack targets deeper in Russia

Originally Posted by HUTCHP
What exactly do the experts think that Ukraine can do with new fighter jets ? According to the RUSI reports Russian was very effective at shooting down Ukrainian aircraft in the early part of the war. Much more so than was ever initially reported. Now in the occupied regions Russia also has a very good integrated air defence system. So Ukraine are not going to be able to operate these jets very effectively are they. ? What kind of role is envisaged for them ? Maybe just a deterrent for the Russian AF not to operate ? I fear the first shoot down of a 'modern Western jet ( like the inevitable first tank kill ) is going to be a big propaganda coup for the Russians.

Hutch
I would imagine the reason they want the jets is that they can directly attack targets deeper in Russia or with a heavier payload.

Maybe, even attack any countries allied to the Russian that border Ukraine.

mikeoneflying is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2023, 07:48
  #14435 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Around
Posts: 1,187
Received 113 Likes on 50 Posts
Originally Posted by HUTCHP
What exactly do the experts think that Ukraine can do with new fighter jets ? According to the RUSI reports Russian was very effective at shooting down Ukrainian aircraft in the early part of the war. Much more so than was ever initially reported. Now in the occupied regions Russia also has a very good integrated air defence system. So Ukraine are not going to be able to operate these jets very effectively are they. ? What kind of role is envisaged for them ? Maybe just a deterrent for the Russian AF not to operate ? I fear the first shoot down of a 'modern Western jet ( like the inevitable first tank kill ) is going to be a big propaganda coup for the Russians.

Hutch
This is what a lot of the armchair quarterbacks here are missing IMO.

Jets aren't going to turn the tide of the war, sending jets will sadly mean more dead Ukr pilots.

The Russians are still operating effective IADS at the FLOT and in the occupied areas that is still claiming Ukr aviation to this day. A token handful of western FJs are not going to enable the Ukr to run proper SEAD missions.

What we should be focusing on is sending things that make a difference now.....manpads, tube and mlrs arty, armoured vehicles and most importantly ammunition.
downsizer is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 9th Feb 2023, 08:03
  #14436 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 16,973
Received 1,358 Likes on 619 Posts
Elon stepping in to help Putin again.

Not meant to be weaponised? They’ve signed now signed numerous contracts with the DoD to provide a LEO bespoke satellite network and comms as well as to design and launch bespoke designed satellites.

SpaceX's president & CEO says Starlink was "never never meant to be weaponized" and "Ukrainians have leveraged it in ways that were unintentional and not part of any agreement." So now the company has limited the Ukrainian military's use of Starlink.

https://t.co/ixtYVwVYa1

https://t.co/VoLlD44Ci1

https://www.spacex.com/starshield/

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-fire-exercise
​​​​​​​

Last edited by ORAC; 9th Feb 2023 at 10:18.
ORAC is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2023, 08:42
  #14437 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In front of a computer
Posts: 2,330
Received 49 Likes on 20 Posts
How about sending Spitfires? We seem to have more of them airworthy than F35s..


ETOPS is online now  
The following 4 users liked this post by ETOPS:
Old 9th Feb 2023, 09:38
  #14438 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London
Posts: 553
Received 21 Likes on 15 Posts
Originally Posted by downsizer
This is what a lot of the armchair quarterbacks here are missing IMO.

Jets aren't going to turn the tide of the war, sending jets will sadly mean more dead Ukr pilots.

The Russians are still operating effective IADS at the FLOT and in the occupied areas that is still claiming Ukr aviation to this day. A token handful of western FJs are not going to enable the Ukr to run proper SEAD missions.

What we should be focusing on is sending things that make a difference now.....manpads, tube and mlrs arty, armoured vehicles and most importantly ammunition.
I'm ignorant but why should they be used for ground attack? Are they useful for defending against cruise missiles (I'm ignorant - just asking)? To an ignorant person it seems that an aircraft with a good radar might be able to protect a larger area than a ground based system - is that total bollocks? I've also read about some Russian aircraft who've been taking long range shots at the Ukranians with some success - wouldn't it be a victory to just make that unattractive with a few western aircraft with long range missiles?
t43562 is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2023, 10:39
  #14439 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: ACT, Australia
Age: 62
Posts: 500
Received 11 Likes on 4 Posts
What is Zelenskyy actually asking for? He can't be that ill advised that he believes the UK would be in any position to defend itself air power wise should it have to face alone the invasion his own country faced and is facing. The UK cant afford to give him a couple of pence when it comes to asking for fighter aircraft, neither can the rest of Europe. Best he hops on a plane and heads to the USA because that is the only place capable of providing any help. The idea of the modern UK forces providing free aircraft for anyone is laughable.
Skeleton is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 9th Feb 2023, 10:41
  #14440 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Norfolk swamps
Age: 57
Posts: 167
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
As other have said, the only way any of the Jags at Cosford will get airborne again would be if they were attached with a sling to a crane.

The GR1's are basically shells with only the bare minimum hyd / elec systems that can be powered up...

The GR1's that arrived from Cranwell would be in better condition overall, but they stopped running / taxiing when a little engine problem arose...followed by the not so little matter of the costs to rectify it.

The GR3's, well maybe, and it's a very big maybe, you could possibly get two just about airworthy, and even then only after extensive and costly work.

You can't blame Zelensky for trying and asking, and Sunak's response was only to be expected, but, the reality must be the UK can't supply the airframes because we don't have them available.

There's always the homeless Vulcan in Doncaster
JagRigger is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.