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72 Sqn trouble

Old 29th Mar 2021, 19:19
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BEagle View Post
.

Sorry for rabbitting on, but the art of successful flight training schedule is not something learned overnight, nor can IT systems cope adequately with the plethora of competing inputs with which the programmer has to deal.
IT systems can. Just not the ones generally bought by the MOD and their contractors for 5p off their mate.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 19:24
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Even it the military world a CHIRP report could be filed.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 19:46
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pba_target View Post
IT systems can. Just not the ones generally bought by the MOD and their contractors for 5p off their mate.
IT systems don't do nuance.
Way back when Finningley was the Nav trainer, and I was the occasional Met. Lecturer, to see "Sgt Mac" [if memory serves] juggling real time problems of timetabling involving lecturers/ students/ classrooms/leave/sickness/detachments and flying programme interfaces armed with a whiteboard and pencil and paper was an education in itself.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 19:53
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by langleybaston View Post
IT systems don't do nuance.
Way back when Finningley was the Nav trainer, and I was the occasional Met. Lecturer, to see "Sgt Mac" [if memory serves] juggling real time problems of timetabling involving lecturers/ students/ classrooms/leave/sickness/detachments and flying programme interfaces armed with a whiteboard and pencil and paper was an education in itself.
The point isn't to let the IT system schedule. It's just a better scheduling board. But a bas one is definitely worse than the old board!
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 21:50
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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There's mention of a chronic shortage of aircraft on the early part of page 1. However, four additional Texans were delivered to Valley during the first week of last November. Since their arrival these four airplanes have not seen the light of day, and indeed have been placed on the CAA register.

This seems strange. Can anyone explain why this has happened?. The initial order for ten airplanes, was, IMHO was way too few, MoD penny-pinching, as usual?.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 00:28
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Thaihawk View Post
There's mention of a chronic shortage of aircraft on the early part of page 1. However, four additional Texans were delivered to Valley during the first week of last November. Since their arrival these four airplanes have not seen the light of day, and indeed have been placed on the CAA register.

This seems strange. Can anyone explain why this has happened?. The initial order for ten airplanes, was, IMHO was way too few, MoD penny-pinching, as usual?.
No, not penny pinching by the MOD. The training solution is entirely owned by Ascent - the military get no say in how their people are trained. Ascent selected the aircraft and decided on numbers.

As I said earlier, they have no interest whatsoever in the standard of training - at Ascent the cost is EVERYTHING. They provided the cheapest platforms they could, and the minimum number.

They have now had to order more Texans and more 145’s as their plans were complete crap. They are staggeringly incompetent when it comes to any ability to provide training, but my goodness they understand profit.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 06:29
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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1. What was the date of the narrative in the first post?

2. Is Ascent more focused on profit or cost?

Just as an aside, the case for fatigue is well made in the narrative. I'm not sure that any case has been made for 'mental health' problems, the use of this (somewhat vague but trendy) phrase rather devalues the serious problems that seem to exist.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 08:05
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
.....so just what are these competitive salaries being offered by Ascent to Hawk and “Texan” QFI s. ?

.. and 72 WAS a fighter squadron, last with Javelins, its now an FTS, so why do they persist with F ?

And it my time it flew Wessex, so should it be 72 (H)?
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 08:52
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beardy View Post
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Just as an aside, the case for fatigue is well made in the narrative. I'm not sure that any case has been made for 'mental health' problems, the use of this (somewhat vague but trendy) phrase rather devalues the serious problems that seem to exist.
I beg to differ. There is a well-established medical link between fatigue and depression - if you are fatigued you are 4 times more likely to become depressed, and vice versa. It is all there in the literature. The reporter describes people being ground down, staff becoming distressed, animosity and resentment between students, all indicators of low morale or, as the medics might have it, low mood. I think that is actually a good case showing impact on their mental health which adds weight to the scale of the problems, not devalues them.

Trendy it might be, but the trend has led to armed forces, regulators and airlines across the world taking mental health seriously. That move has been long overdue.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 09:21
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Unless I am very much mistaken, here on planet earth in 2021 employers are required by law to have a variety of systems and policies in place to protect their employees, including, inter alia, whistleblowing and health and safety protocols.
In recent times, the scope and scale of personal liability of management and responsible persons has grown markedly, and as has been mentioned, can include prison.
Whilst I have no issue with the original poster airing the issues here, they might be better served by using the existing means at their disposal, which can mostly be invoked anonymously.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 10:38
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by falcon900 View Post
Whilst I have no issue with the original poster airing the issues here, they might be better served by using the existing means at their disposal, which can mostly be invoked anonymously.
I recall the late Phil Pynegar's suspicion of such schemes... "All very well, but a bit of a shocker getting a call starting with, Ah, Flt Lt Pynegar, about that CONDOR you sent in..."

Bit of a bummer if that happens when you are having a serious pop at the senior management, eh?

CG
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 17:05
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fortissimo View Post
I beg to differ. There is a well-established medical link between fatigue and depression - if you are fatigued you are 4 times more likely to become depressed, and vice versa. It is all there in the literature. The reporter describes people being ground down, staff becoming distressed, animosity and resentment between students, all indicators of low morale or, as the medics might have it, low mood. I think that is actually a good case showing impact on their mental health which adds weight to the scale of the problems, not devalues them.

Trendy it might be, but the trend has led to armed forces, regulators and airlines across the world taking mental health seriously. That move has been long overdue.
There is a world of difference between being depressed and depression, being unhappy with your lot is NOT the same as being ill although I believe it can be a precursor. It is very unhelpful for those who are suffering from mental illness to confuse understandable emotional reactions with symptoms of illness.

Last edited by beardy; 30th Mar 2021 at 18:02.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 00:37
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Dont know relevant this is to the current discussion, probably not very, but to someone who has been out of the game as long as I have, it is staggering to read what has happened to the RAF in recent years.

When I went through nav school in 1969-70, I recall it as a time of intense activity, a year crammed with flying, classroom work and survival training etc, with little time to draw breath. I remember that at the end of basic nav training at Gaydon we had a wash up where were asked for suggestions which might help improve the course. I suggested that perhaps one afternoon a month might be left free so that we could carry out routine admin tasks such as going to SHQ, visiting stores to exchange kit and that sort of thing. The DS were shocked by the suggestion and I was told in no uncertain terms that there was no chance of fitting such a period into an already crowded training programme. It now seems that far from an afternoon a month to do a bit of admin, some of these poor sods are getting so little flying they could be given a month off and told to go away and find something useful to do. Heartbreaking.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 04:50
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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TTN - in today’s RAF, it’s more like one afternoon per month being allocated to flying!
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 09:57
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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My lad, nearly 17, has had his heart set on flying in the RAF since he was a nipper, following family tradition. As of now, I cannot recommend that path to him.
Sad times.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 11:13
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Commercial Reality Check Guys !

30 per cent of professional pilots throughout the world are unemployed with little to no chance of finding work in the medium term. 17 % of professional pilots are furloughed with little to no chance of significant numbers returning to work in the short to medium term. Those remaining at work are braced for further job losses and deep cuts to their terms and conditions of employment. While a 11 hour working day is a long duty period its not exceptional and 12 1/2 hours is a regular typical flying duty in the civilian sector. If your only flying 140 hours per annum you have it easy. 100 flying hours per 28 days is the summer target for the airlines and these hours are spread through deep nights, very early starts, late starts with time zone disturbances thrown in. You report 12 QFIs to 12 student QFIs and 22 students. That divides up to less than 3 students per instructor which seems very reasonable and manageable. If students are not flying often enough and your concerned about continuity and safety, then as the QFI you do not send them solo and if the course foot print over runs so be it. If your concerned about flight planning software and other dispatch issues deal with them your not flying much you have all the time in the world to resolve these problems. While the report highlights domestic problems within your Squadron these concerns should have been managed domestically in house using the established chain of command. This report should not have been published in an open forum and it borders on mutiny if it has been published by a military officer. It certainly brings the service into disrepute. Frequent shift changes not getting home when you expect to get home bluntly "thats life in a blue suit" please be thankful that your on salary right now, that your flying a wonderful aeroplane with a ready supply of talented highly motivated and aptitude selected students. Your the QFI you know what the problems are fix those that you can, recruit colleagues to fix those that you cant and when you have done all that you possibly put the kettle on have a cup of tea and chill out. Seriously enjoy being on salary.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 11:54
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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....but please use you’re where you mean you’re not your.!!

I see it made the Daily Mail today,
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 12:09
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Paul Rice, Your comments are from one who is totally out of touch with the present situation at Valley. You imply that maybe you served at some time but then your comments show that you have little understanding of Military Aviation and even less of Military Aviation Training.

Whilst one may agree in principal that a DASOR should not be printed in the public domain one needs to understand the frustration that has led to this.

MFTS has put the RAF Flying Training system into total disarray. The reason is the Senior Officers responsible for signing off on Contracts that are worthless. The only interest that Ascent has is to make a fast buck. Right from the outset the company never resourced enough assets to fulfil the REAL requirement. Not enough QFIs, not enough aircraft, not enough engineers, not enough Ops staff, not enough hours in the day!! How would they even expect 95% serviceability from their aircraft? How could they expect to run a Training Programme on flying for 16 hours a day with no factoring for weather.

An example of a student at present in the system is: Achieved 75 hours on Tutor at UEA in first 2 years at university. Struggled to get much flying in 3rd year. A year to get to Cranwell and complete IOT. A year holding at various units around the RAF doing mostly c**p jobs. A further year to complete EFT and EFT Refresher course. Start at BFT at Valley and now delayed in starting flying for the 3rd time in as many months. Reason, not enough QFIs and not enough serviceable aircraft (for what ever reason).

Maybe those who are prepared to speak out are loyal. They are loyal to their friends, their students and to the Royal Air Force. Keeping quite to cover up Senior Officers screw ups is not "loyalty".

When you read comments such as
As of now, I cannot recommend that path to him. Sad times.
it makes one believe that something has to change before it is too late!

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Old 31st Mar 2021, 14:08
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MaxReheat View Post

a. Who are these 'schedulers'? In ye olde days the program was hacked out 'in house' ie on the squadron. Don't tell me the RAF now suffers from the same affliction the airlines do ie workloads and lifestyles determined by a spotty-faced clerk who knows all the rules but never has to live with the reality and the consequences of their output.
Airlines now use some very good optimisation software for aircraft and flight crew scheduling. The days of the 'spotty-faced clerk' as you put it are well past , Maybe ASCENT could take a leaf out of that book.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 15:40
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
....but please use you’re where you mean you’re not your.!!

I see it made the Daily Mail today,
Link

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ying-much.html
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