RAF recruitment statistics
On the dome above the court stands the court's symbolic gilt bronze statue of Lady Justice by sculptor F. W. Pomeroy (made 1905–1906).[8] She holds a sword in her right hand and the scales of justice in her left. The statue is popularly supposed to show blind Justice, but the figure is not blindfolded: the courthouse brochures explain that this is because Lady Justice was originally not blindfolded, and because her "maidenly form" is supposed to guarantee her impartiality which renders the blindfold redundant.[9]
I was rejected in my youth by several who were indifferent.
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Oh dear, oh dear.
This argument rears it's ugly head every couple of years, OR - whenever a social event drives the debate, al'la BLM. Whenever the discussion appears, the evidence tells us nothing much has changed since the last debate. So, do we think, in ten years time, the situation will have advanced? Likely not.
Now, to be fair, technology and politics means that there will continue to be massive change in the structure and compisition of our forces which will make comparisions difficult to apply. Let us assume that staffing issues will remain unchanged.
I absolutely believe that we should be attracting themost capable and apt for those roles available. However, societial studies tells us that some members have advantages, and receive very different messages to some others. Realistically, the recruitment messages says different things to different people. Simply, many BAME people (one more term I utterly hate, we are all people, human beings) live in the inner city. When I went to Cranwell in 1990, I went from a big city to rural Cranwell in one four our drive. I knew full well what I was going to, but some people would be overwhelmed by the massive cultural change from Peckham or similair areas to that sacred place. I joined with a large number of people who I swear had never met a black person in real life. Have we really advanced as a society, with our expectations?
Why are there so many people in NBA basketball, or a desire to get into Premier division football, or a desire to get into Rap? For to many of us, it's about your one route out, to the exclusion of realistic alternative routes. The COVID19 pandemic has shown us there are plenty of people making good progress at the highest levels in Medicine, but are being recognised by paying the price. There is no shortage of Teachers, in the inner city, TV presenters, journalists. We are all there. There are plenty of people of colour in the Army, and at sea, but not enough professionals. Do we really have to wait 20+ years for those people to advance to commission level to send out a possible message?
Politicians set quotas, the recruiters need to identify and encourage those who might overwise choose a career in entertainment journalism sport etc. Marcus Rashford is barely 21, and has shamed a forty plus PM who benefitted from the best education this country can provide. Is the message clear yet?
This argument rears it's ugly head every couple of years, OR - whenever a social event drives the debate, al'la BLM. Whenever the discussion appears, the evidence tells us nothing much has changed since the last debate. So, do we think, in ten years time, the situation will have advanced? Likely not.
Now, to be fair, technology and politics means that there will continue to be massive change in the structure and compisition of our forces which will make comparisions difficult to apply. Let us assume that staffing issues will remain unchanged.
I absolutely believe that we should be attracting themost capable and apt for those roles available. However, societial studies tells us that some members have advantages, and receive very different messages to some others. Realistically, the recruitment messages says different things to different people. Simply, many BAME people (one more term I utterly hate, we are all people, human beings) live in the inner city. When I went to Cranwell in 1990, I went from a big city to rural Cranwell in one four our drive. I knew full well what I was going to, but some people would be overwhelmed by the massive cultural change from Peckham or similair areas to that sacred place. I joined with a large number of people who I swear had never met a black person in real life. Have we really advanced as a society, with our expectations?
Why are there so many people in NBA basketball, or a desire to get into Premier division football, or a desire to get into Rap? For to many of us, it's about your one route out, to the exclusion of realistic alternative routes. The COVID19 pandemic has shown us there are plenty of people making good progress at the highest levels in Medicine, but are being recognised by paying the price. There is no shortage of Teachers, in the inner city, TV presenters, journalists. We are all there. There are plenty of people of colour in the Army, and at sea, but not enough professionals. Do we really have to wait 20+ years for those people to advance to commission level to send out a possible message?
Politicians set quotas, the recruiters need to identify and encourage those who might overwise choose a career in entertainment journalism sport etc. Marcus Rashford is barely 21, and has shamed a forty plus PM who benefitted from the best education this country can provide. Is the message clear yet?
'Marcus Rashford is barely 21, and has shamed a forty plus PM who benefitted from the best education this country can provide. Is the message clear yet?'
Rashford is 23, Johnson 56
The only reason Rashford has succeeded is because of the media. Media backs fringe causes, government and business poo themselves over the adverse publicity and cave in.
RAF recruitment , the problem is of the governments own making. 'Options for Change' / Peace Dividend etc...has run down our armed forces for the last 30 years.
Think of all the trainee pilots let go not too long ago.
Would anyone join a company, knowing that company is on a downward spiral and the rot hasn't stopped?
Saying ethnic recruitment is not happening in the RAF, is really not the issue. The issue is recruitment full stop and the problem runs much deeper
Rashford is 23, Johnson 56
The only reason Rashford has succeeded is because of the media. Media backs fringe causes, government and business poo themselves over the adverse publicity and cave in.
RAF recruitment , the problem is of the governments own making. 'Options for Change' / Peace Dividend etc...has run down our armed forces for the last 30 years.
Think of all the trainee pilots let go not too long ago.
Would anyone join a company, knowing that company is on a downward spiral and the rot hasn't stopped?
Saying ethnic recruitment is not happening in the RAF, is really not the issue. The issue is recruitment full stop and the problem runs much deeper
Agree with Rolling20,
I left in 2000 because the whole armed forces seemed to be in a downward spiral which even big commitments to conflicts in the middle east haven't managed to stop. All the services exemplify the phrase "managed decline", with senior officers falling over themselves to justify morecuts efficiencies. Beating the drum for something fewer and fewer people believe in, and why should they? From the outside it is so obvious how it has been going for the last 20 years and the whole thing just comes across as a tiny little 'niche industry' with ever-diminishing opportunities. Fair enough, they don't want to spend money on bigger forces, but then shouldn't wonder why it is on so few people's radar, whatever their colour.
I left in 2000 because the whole armed forces seemed to be in a downward spiral which even big commitments to conflicts in the middle east haven't managed to stop. All the services exemplify the phrase "managed decline", with senior officers falling over themselves to justify more
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I had a fascinating conversation whilst waiting for a flight home from Cyprus with a lad of Indian descent. He was an Officer and was immensely proud of this fact, which I thought was great, as many are not.
The conversation progressed and he said with a heavy heart that his family pretty much disowned him for the first 5 yrs of his career and only his brother attended his graduation from IOT.
It turns out that his parents were absolutely aghast that he would choose to join the military and not become a doctor. Culturally, the armed forces were seen to be on a level pegging with a dustbin man!
His parents after nearly 10 yrs still gave him grief every time he visited home.
From what he had said, it appears that recruiting from certain demographics will never work, regardless of the aspirations, quotas and budget.
Just a thought...
The conversation progressed and he said with a heavy heart that his family pretty much disowned him for the first 5 yrs of his career and only his brother attended his graduation from IOT.
It turns out that his parents were absolutely aghast that he would choose to join the military and not become a doctor. Culturally, the armed forces were seen to be on a level pegging with a dustbin man!
His parents after nearly 10 yrs still gave him grief every time he visited home.
From what he had said, it appears that recruiting from certain demographics will never work, regardless of the aspirations, quotas and budget.
Just a thought...
Last edited by heights good; 18th Dec 2020 at 15:50.
Thread Starter
I will leave this here, this should put most of the quota arguments to bed.
https://youtu.be/4bq3YrYjG-s
https://youtu.be/4bq3YrYjG-s
I don't think that any of these discussions have argued in favour of a quota. Rule 6 stay away from over simplifications.
Last edited by beardy; 18th Dec 2020 at 06:05.
"Culturally, the armed forces were seen to be on a level pegging with a dustbin man!"
If you read "redcoat" - a history of the British Army - you'd find that that was the view of most families in England between 1600 and 1914
If you read "redcoat" - a history of the British Army - you'd find that that was the view of most families in England between 1600 and 1914
Don't forget the pre-war joke, that , 'a son would tell his mother he was a pianist in a brothel, rather than admit to being in the RAF'.
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When I worked in an Islamic Sultanate we had a local pilot who rose to become one of the first local Captains. Then he got married, at which point his family decided it was time for him to stop playing with aeroplanes and get a "proper job". They pulled strings for a senior job in the Foreign Ministry and that was the end of his flying career.
As an ex recruiter I can say that there was always a push to recruit people from BAME backgrounds, and a desire to to try and get the population of the RAF closer to that of the UK in terms of gender, sexual orientation and ethnic background.
But there are hurdles to this, just like you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink, you can have all the recruting drives and roadshows you want, targeted at every minority, but if they don't want to join you can't force them.
Our dwindling number of locations doesn't always help recreuitment or retention either. The biggest Muslim populations in the UK are in the North West of England.... where does the RAF have no stations? How can those young adults see what we do and look at it as an attractive job?
You then have the perceived hostility toward Muslims to overcome - more than once I was asked by MUslim kids "Why do you only bomb Muslims?" Obviously we don't, but that is what is focussed on in the news and is what the radicals in their communities would like them to think.
As an organisation we have to do better, how we do it needs serious thought.
But there are hurdles to this, just like you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink, you can have all the recruting drives and roadshows you want, targeted at every minority, but if they don't want to join you can't force them.
Our dwindling number of locations doesn't always help recreuitment or retention either. The biggest Muslim populations in the UK are in the North West of England.... where does the RAF have no stations? How can those young adults see what we do and look at it as an attractive job?
You then have the perceived hostility toward Muslims to overcome - more than once I was asked by MUslim kids "Why do you only bomb Muslims?" Obviously we don't, but that is what is focussed on in the news and is what the radicals in their communities would like them to think.
As an organisation we have to do better, how we do it needs serious thought.
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Poorly worded on my part, I wasn't trying to imply that people were arguing for quotas. I was trying to highlight that quotas just dont work and the MoD should provide equality of opportunity, not outcome.
I hope that clears things up.
I would ask the question as to whether RAF personnel would do their roles any better if the numbers of of ethnic minorities matched the
UK numbers?
If so, what is lacking at the moment and how would they make it better?
UK numbers?
If so, what is lacking at the moment and how would they make it better?
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It’s like anything, you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink, you can try and entice through recruitment anyone and everyone, but if they don’t want to play in ones army, nothing will convince them otherwise so you make do with those that wish too.
Thread Starter
'Them'? Is not the use of this type of language seen as being exclusive and part of the reason 'they' don't feel included, part of 'us'?
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It at the end of the day is a personal choice and if parts of the populace decide not to partake in a career in the military, but there are those keen to, then logic dictates you take those.
I cannot believe a CIO will turn down applicants simply because the advertising wasn’t aimed at them.
.
Pardon my ignorance, as ever.
Are the selection tests [written] "colour blind".
Clearly they should be.
In my career [not directly military] I was allowed to choose, by interview, my personal admin staff. On several occasions the best candidate was BAME. Who would settle for second best? Not I.
Equally, I would want the best regardless. Surely the RAF would want the best available?.
Pardon my ignorance, as ever.
Are the selection tests [written] "colour blind".
Clearly they should be.
In my career [not directly military] I was allowed to choose, by interview, my personal admin staff. On several occasions the best candidate was BAME. Who would settle for second best? Not I.
Equally, I would want the best regardless. Surely the RAF would want the best available?.
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Stats - always interesting and usually don't tell the full story. Two more questions which could be asked are: why do those with a Chinese background do the best, and how do those worst performing in education, the white working class, score in the tests.
As a general observation on who applies and whether it reflects society: if you're joining the armed forces, you have to be prepared to kill whoever at the behest of the government of the day. You might be against harming others or killing per se; you might be against killing specific nationalities. It's unlikely, therefore, to be a representative cross section.
Just my 2 bob's worth.
As a general observation on who applies and whether it reflects society: if you're joining the armed forces, you have to be prepared to kill whoever at the behest of the government of the day. You might be against harming others or killing per se; you might be against killing specific nationalities. It's unlikely, therefore, to be a representative cross section.
Just my 2 bob's worth.